Cletrac.org

Cletrac Tractor Discussion => HG, OC-3, OC-4 & General => Topic started by: hotratz on July 26, 2008, 07:14:12 PM



Title: Easy Alternator Conversion
Post by: hotratz on July 26, 2008, 07:14:12 PM
NOTE: Since the time of this writing the supplier has run out of this alternator at the special price. These alternators are however available through other sources at close to the discounted price I was originally offered by Quick Start Automotive Electric. They still continue to maintain an extensive inventory of alternator and starters and accessory parts.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


About a month ago I decided it was time to look into a 12 volt alternator system for my OC-46 project. My first thought was to use a one wire Delco 10SI unit, mainly because they're readily available, inexspensive, reliable and some are easy one wire hook-up. I purchased one for a good price on ebay and when it arrived I set about making the nessesary bracketry to fit it up. I wanted to use the OEM pulley off the generator to keep things looking somewhat close to factory. Surprisingly it slipped right onto the Delco unit and bolted up. After spending much time fabricating a nice solid bracket and getting the pullies aligned and a belt selected I test fit the engine side tin. ARRRGG! Even though I was careful to keep it as close to the engine block as possible the alternator stuck out so much I was now going to have to cut clearance on the tin in order to get it all to fit. This didn't sit too well with me and the Delco unit just looked too darn big hanging on the side of the little Hercules. Well, I decided I was going to start over and try to find a smaller alternator for this conversion.

While doing an internet search I found a company in Comstock Park,  Michigan called Quick Start Automotive Electric (http://www.alternatorparts.com/) I gave them a call and told them what I was trying to do and if they could suggest an alternator for my application. they told me they had just purchased about 250 Nippondenso alternators that are brand new take offs from some gen-sets that the manufacturer was replacing with larger ones. They said these things were tiny and were rated at 40 amps. Sounded like just what I was looking for so I ordered one up. At this time these sell for $69.00 and come with a pigtail connector.  This is what the unit looks like.

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL83/533924/20206079/328619292.jpg)

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL83/533924/20206079/328891735.jpg)



When I got it the first thing I noticed was, if I was going to use the original generator pulley I was going to have to overcome the issue of a much shorter and smaller diameter shaft. The shaft on the 'Denso unit was not long enough to come out the front of the thick OEM pulley and also was only 14 MM diameter. I thought I might try and make a counterbore nut that would act as the bushing and the nut. I came up with this.

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL83/533924/20206079/328033584.jpg)

It's a grade 8, 3/4 in. bolt, cut off, turned down, bored and threaded for 14X1.5 mm. The lock washer is 16 mm and was just slightly undersize for the O.D. but was persuaded on with little effort. An 11/16th washer would be proper if I would have had one handy. The pulley was installed backwards (casting number toward alternator) to allow it to turn freely without interfering with the end bell of the alternator. Also note, this nut will have to be installed and removed with an impact gun since there is no practical way to hold the armature from spinning. Just don't over do it with the impact gun when tightening or you'll chance stripping the threads. Two or three wacks with the guns hammer is sufficient.

This picture with the OEM pulley installed shows clearly how small this unit is.

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL83/533924/20206079/328619313.jpg)

Next I had to position it on the engine block to measure for a new bottom bracket that needed to be fabricated. As I held it in place and sighted across the pullies I noticed I was holding it so close to the engine block that I just decided to bolt it up temporarily through one of the timing gear cover bolts so I could get a measurement.

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL83/533924/15042131/327370527.jpg)

 Well to my surprize, after I bolted it on and resighted, I couldn't believe my eyes. All three pullies were perfectly lined up. No lower bracket needed !

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL83/533924/15042131/327370525.jpg)

The only bracket I had to make was the simple top bracket that was bolted to a threaded hole provided on the water pump.

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL83/533924/15042131/327370533.jpg)

Now the engine tin cleared with room to spare.

This alternator is internally regulated and externally excited so in addition to the output wire to the ammeter it also requires one more additional wire from the ignition switch. It comes with a pigtailed connector that plugs into the back of the alternator. I believe one of the wires can drive a charge light for  charge/no charge indication

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL83/533924/15042131/327370535.jpg)

If you're interested in inquiring about this alternator from Quick Start they list it as Item # ND-1170-40A. Another note, The belt I ended up using is a Napa part number 25-22386. It is a 11/16th wide belt and has an outside length of 39 3/8th in. With the fan pulley adjusted up tight I still have about 1/2 in. of adjustment left.

This conversion was actually much easier than trying to use the Delco one wire unit. The only small obsticle was wanting to use the OEM pulley and making the adaptor nut but if you have access to a lathe it only took about 30 minutes to make. This thing was almost bolt on.

It appears Nippondenso used this perticular housing for several of their alternators. If you look at the listing for  Kubota (http://store.alternatorparts.com/search.aspx?find=Kubota&log=false&category=15) You'll see a good list of them at various ratings.  I've found out they were used on Kubota tractors and Yanmar/Isuzu generator sets. Probably other Yanmar/Kubota/Isuzu equipment as well.

Here are the dimentions of the top bracket and the nut.

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL83/533924/20206079/328011677.jpg)


 (http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL83/533924/20206079/327878521.jpg)

Below is the common wiring diagram for this alternator. The three terminals are marked on the right side of the alternator nameplate as " P, IG, L".

"P" (red wire) is a frequency pulse that is used as a feed-back signal for tachs or automatic frequency control on a generator set. This will not be used for this application.

"IG" (green wire) is the field excitation circuit that is normally switched by an ignition switch or other automatic switching device such as an engine oil pressure switch. This turns the alternator on with a +12vdc signal. This wire could be jumped to the alternator output terminal at the alternator for one wire operation but you should be aware that with the engine not running there will be about 300 ma of parasitic draw on the battery. Enough to drain it over the course of a few days.

"L" (blue wire) This is the charge/no charge indicator light if you choose to use it. You will need to add a small incandescent dash lamp between this wire and a +12vdc source such as the ignition switch. With the key turned on and alternator not turning it will be lighted. As the engine is started and the alternator has good output it will go out. Any illumination of the light while the engine is running indicates no or low alternator output.

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL83/533924/20206079/329076872.jpg)

Connector pin-out on right side of nameplate

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL83/533924/20206079/327881487.jpg)

The connector pigtail colors will be upside-down from the wiring diagram and nameplate symbol when installed. If you pull the connector off you can identify the symbol orientation by looking at the outline of the connector socket. It matches the nameplate symbol.

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL83/533924/20206079/328948313.jpg)


I would encourage any of you who want to copy/save any of this information to your own PC to do so. It's all linked from an image sharing website so I can't garrentee it'll always be availible when you want it.


Title:
Post by: Blake Malkamaki on July 26, 2008, 10:26:26 PM
Thanks for this fine write-up and research on this project. It should help solve many people's problems.

Blake


Title:
Post by: Orangeman on July 27, 2008, 05:15:37 AM
Hotratz: Only thing I can say is that is mighty fine looking work.  Sure appreciate the posting.  

Keep these kind of info. tech pieces rolling, sure helps to look at others ideas!!

Orangeman

What do you plan to use the machine for??  :lol:


Title: Alternator
Post by: John Schwiebert on July 27, 2008, 09:43:24 AM
Really looks nice!. If you have the mag yet are you thinging of using an engine oil pressure switch to energize the alternator. Send me a P-M as well. Thank you. John


Title:
Post by: hotratz on July 27, 2008, 10:15:55 AM
John:
My ignition switch has a set of normally closed contacts to ground out the mag and accessory contacts to excite the alternator but I like your idea. With a pressure switch I wouldn't ever worry about the excitation being left on when it's not running.  :idea:

Orangeman:
The crawler will see mostly recreational use, Some seasonal road maintenance/snow removal. I also have a 20 acre piece east of the mountains I might do some escavating on. No commercial type work.


Title:
Post by: Blake Malkamaki on July 27, 2008, 08:24:37 PM
Steve, I think this one deserves its own page in the technical area (where the auxiliary transmission stuff is), so if you have more pictures and want to write any more to add, please send them to me. I'll try to get to this pretty soon. Been busy as can be, but things should be letting up a little in the next couple weeks.

Blake


Title:
Post by: hotratz on July 27, 2008, 10:19:16 PM
Hey Blake, I'm honored. I'll try to get a few more bits of info and pics and send them your way. Just as you, I've got about a half dozen irons in the fire too.  :?  If you give me about a week I can just edit this thread with the additional info and then you can move it all together.


Title:
Post by: Blake Malkamaki on July 28, 2008, 05:03:00 PM
Quote from: "hotratz"
Hey Blake, I'm honored. I'll try to get a few more bits of info and pics and send them your way. Just as you, I've got about a half dozen irons in the fire too.  :?  If you give me about a week I can just edit this thread with the additional info and then you can move it all together.


Sounds good Steve. Thanks.

Blake


Title:
Post by: Oliver_collector on July 29, 2008, 01:55:01 PM
Hotratz: Do you have a link to the alternator itself on National Quick Start Sales website? I can't seem to find it. I would like to put one of those on my OC-3.
Thanks,
Geoffrey


Title:
Post by: Oliver_collector on August 04, 2008, 02:55:03 PM
Steve,
Did any wiring instructions come with your alternator? I just got one today and there is no paperwork with it. Since I'm electrically challenged, could you tell me how you wired your's?
Thanks,
Geoffrey


Title:
Post by: hotratz on August 05, 2008, 10:23:49 PM
I've added the wiring information at the bottom of the top post.


Title:
Post by: Oliver_collector on August 06, 2008, 02:24:16 PM
Steve,
Thanks for the wiring info. I take it that you connected the pulse wire to one side of the mag switch and the ignition wire to the other side so that when the mag is grounded (engine stopped), the alt. is not excited. Correct?
Geoffrey


Title:
Post by: hotratz on August 06, 2008, 04:18:16 PM
The pulse wire will not be used. The "IG" (field) wire becomes hot
(+ 12vdc) when you turn on an ignition switch of some sort.

I haven't wired mine up yet. I've got a lot of other stuff to do yet before I get to that point.  :D


Title:
Post by: chrisvdv on December 21, 2008, 04:14:54 PM
Huge thanks. This is great. I will do this later in 2009. At the same time, what do you think of this starter set-up. Would you agree that the original starter is not up to the job? I am a new OC-3 with Ware 3-WI owner.

http://www.autoelec.com/html/oliver_cle ... educt.html (http://www.autoelec.com/html/oliver_cletrac_oc3_gear_reduct.html)

I am having trouble starting it in this cold weather. I tried a 12volt jump-start. I won't do that again, although it worked! And two 6v batteries won't do it either. Frustrating when you have 4 feet of snow to clear!


Title:
Post by: DukeRC51 on December 21, 2008, 06:57:46 PM
I've had one for about two years. It's the best thing since sliced bread.


Title: Starter
Post by: John Schwiebert on December 21, 2008, 08:08:58 PM
12 volts is easier on the starter than 6 volts. That is why smaller cables are used on 12 volt systems. Make sure all your connections are good. Do you run lights? If not put a 12 volt battery and a small cheap 12 volt charger. Charge the battery when the tractor is parked. Since it has a mag it  will take no electricity when it is running. Confused?


Title:
Post by: hotratz on December 23, 2008, 01:28:40 AM
The 6 volt starter is fine with a 12 volt battery. I've run them that way in my VW beetles for years, also my 56 Diamond T and now my OC-46. They turn over much faster and although the starting current is a little higher the engine will start quicker thus reducing starter wear. I've never burnt up a starter yet.

If you're having trouble starting in the cold weather try heating up the carb with a heat gun or hair dryer for about 3 mins. I've used this method on a couple of my machines and it works great.


Title: great advice 12v vs. 6v
Post by: chrisvdv on December 30, 2008, 05:19:37 PM
Thanks you guys! Will hook up a 12v battery New Year's Day.

I tried to order the alternator set-up. I have not been able to get hold of your supplier. I hope they have not gone the way of so many northern automotive suppliers.


Title: Easy Alternator Conversion
Post by: hotratz on February 01, 2009, 08:43:18 PM
A little more progress. Here's a video capturing the operation of the charging system with the alternator in use. The alternator charges immediately at idle speed even before the oil pressure makes minimum psi. Looks like I might have to put a resistor across the ammeter terminals to dampen that initial needle movement. I think that gauge was made to respond to the kind of current a sluggish 6 volt generator puts out. Boy did I wake it up. It settled down pretty quick though. All in all I'm very pleased with the initial check-out

Alternator Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B37YWbXImTE)


Title:
Post by: Blake Malkamaki on February 01, 2009, 09:06:38 PM
Nice video. Boy, that thing does start charging fast. The alternator I put on my Farmall Super M needs to have the engine revved way up to excite, then it charges thereafter.

What did you use to take the video? Cell phone? Flip video? Turned out good.

Blake


Title:
Post by: hotratz on February 01, 2009, 10:19:52 PM
The vid was taken with my digital camera. I think You Tube compresses the file because it isn't all that grainy when I play it from my hard drive.

These alternators were designed for diesel gen-sets that have a 1800 rpm max running speed so they are wound to output at a lower RPM than an automotive unit that's expected to see much higher engine speed.

A friend of mine has a Delco one wire on his old international too and says the warning light comes on when it idles.


Title: Re: Easy Alternator Conversion
Post by: hotratz on September 20, 2012, 03:45:37 PM
I just realized the whole purpose of choosing this Nippondenso alternator was so I could cleanly fit it without hacking my side covers up to fit a Delco. Totally forgot to post some pictures to show how well it fit with the tin in place  ::)

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL83/533924/20206079/403997747.jpg)

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL83/533924/20206079/403997748.jpg)

(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL83/533924/20206079/403997746.jpg)


Title: Re:
Post by: Demaris on April 30, 2016, 08:30:59 AM
Huge thanks. This is great. I will do this later in 2009. At the same time, what do you think of this starter set-up. Would you agree that the original starter is not up to the job? I am a new OC-3 with Ware 3-WI owner.

http://www.autoelec.com/html/oliver_cle ... educt.html (http://www.autoelec.com/html/oliver_cletrac_oc3_gear_reduct.html)

I am having trouble starting it in this cold weather. I tried a 12volt jump-start. I won't do that again, although it worked! And two 6v batteries won't do it either. Frustrating when you have 4 feet of snow to clear!

Did you unhook the 6 volt battery before jumping with 12 volt?  I've jumped my HG with 12 volts for years in the winter and it has always worked great.  Even when below zero F it spins very fast.  I rebuilt the 6 volt generator in my machine 20 years ago and since it works fine, I hate to replace it with an alternator.  Since my HG usually only gets used in the summer, it is usually NOT an issue.  But when I DO have to use it in the cold - I unhook the 6 volt battery and unhook the generator and then stick a 12 volt battery in it.  I am debating now what to do. I just bought some new remote property in the Michigan UP and am going to take my HG up there and leave it there - maybe forever.  There is no electricity other then some solar I will be putting in.  So now I am debating putting a new 6 volt battery in my HG, or converting to 12 volt with an alternator. I've got piles of small alternators that will fit right in (from Geo Trackers). Nice thing about 12 volt is I've always got a few extra 12 volt batteries around. Not the case anymore with 6 volt. But as I said, the original 6 volt generator works fine.  Just a situation of poor cold starting which may not be an issue anymore. I also suspect I could improve it with an new push-button starter switch.  The one on it now was for a 12 volt system and gets hot when used with 6 volts, so I know there is a substantial voltage-drop across it.


Title: Re: Easy Alternator Conversion
Post by: sedanpilot on July 19, 2018, 09:14:03 AM
Thanx Hotratz!...  I just bought a 1957 OC-4 and wanted to run a small 12V winch on the back, this conversion did the trick...  I didn't change the drive pulley, used the one that came with the alternator (but used the belt you recommended), added another toggle switch for alternator excitement...  Would have been an extremely simple conversion except for having to pull the hydraulic pump to change the belt...  Pump had rigid pipe fittings and I didn't want to R&R the radiator, so I cut the pipe nipples with a hacksaw to remove the pump...  Once I pulled the pump I decided that I didn't need hydraulics, so I pulled the whole system off the crawler...  If I ever find a 3 point setup I can buy, I'll reinstall the hydraulics...  I would have spent hours/days trying to reinvent the wheel if I hadn't had your instructions...  Thanx again, David