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Author Topic: MG-1 Stuck-won't roll!  (Read 4087 times)
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waayfast
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« on: April 10, 2009, 01:21:13 PM »

Hello all,I just got my new toy home and now I need to get it to roll to get it off my truck.The tracks were very packed with hard clay mud and the guides were somewhat rusted together. Several days (6) of chipping the adobe and rust out it still wont roll. I have even resorted to using a small porta-power pushing on a tooth on the sprocket.Working slowly and carefully I have now about an inch movement on the tracks--but it seems to have come up against something solid.I dont want to really force it for fear of breaking something.
  My question to the pros on here is--This transmission is in neutral (98% sure) BUT would it be possible that in an extreme case from sitting stationary for 45 years that the gears/drive train is full of dried out 90wt or rusted together to the point that the tracks are still connected to stuck engine? If so --can I access the guts of the old girl thru the top to at least spray in some marvel mystery oil or similar?
  It's actually been very handy to have it on the flat bed for cleaning out the tracks but I need my truck back :D
  Jim
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by waayfast » Logged

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Blake Malkamaki
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« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2009, 09:54:42 PM »

I doubt very much that anything would be seized in that case unless all the oil had been drained out for some reason years ago. One nice thing about Cletracs is that everything is in oil, so everything in there should still work just fine after many years of sitting. (Unlike Cats, Internationals and the like that have dry clutches that get full of mouse nests and rust solid.)

It may be possible that you are in two gears at the same time, so nothing will move. You should be able to tell everything by pulling the cover off.

Blake
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Blake » Logged

My gramps Howard van Driest was Experimental Engineer at Cletrac and Oliver Corporation. After the plant closed, he and my uncle started an excavating business, initially using Cletrac and Oliver Crawler tractors. Please help Support This Site and give your business exposure by buying a business card sized ad.
Ol Paint
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« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2009, 10:30:20 PM »

On mine, the transmission was partially in gear, even though the shifter was in neutral.  If you pull the top cover to the transmission, you can get access to the shifter rails and make sure everything is in neutral.  

What do you mean when you say you get an inch of movement?  The sprocket is actually moving?  Have you checked the centerguides of the tracks closely to make sure one of them is not bent over and binding?  

To answer your question, yes, you can access the gear train by pulling the top cover on the transmission, but you'll have to remove the seat.  There are two large covers on the transmission--the forward one gives access to the clutch and shaft brake, the rear one to the transmission/differential.

Picture  

The front of the tractor is towards the top of the picture in this photo.

[Edit:  Incidentally, the green painted stirrup-shaped item visible surrounding the shifter rails is an interlock to the clutch pedal that is supposed to lift up when the pedal is depressed to allow the shifter rails to move.  When in gear (or neutral) the cross-bar (visible at the top of the cover opening) drops into the notches in the rail to keep everything in gear.*  As I recall, the 1-2 rail was partially engaged in 2nd gear, but the shifter was in the neutral position and could be moved to engage 3rd or 4th.  I tapped the rail back into line with the others, then was able to move the machine a couple of inches by sticking a 30" crowbar through the drive sprocket and jacking on the bar with a 10-ton jack resting on the rear roadwheel.  It should go without saying, but stay clear of the tractor when you are trying to move it like this.

*At least, that's how I think it works when I fiddle around with the levers...  ;)  My engine issues have had center stage for so long that my memory of the transmission operation is fuzzy.  The engine in mine was siezed when I bought it and I'm in the process of chiseling the pistons out, so I haven't actually driven it under its own power, yet.]

Douglas
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Ol Paint » Logged
waayfast
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« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2009, 11:48:41 PM »

Thanks to you both for the reply!
    Its starting to make sense now---Yes,I was getting about 3/4" to 1 inch rotation at the outside of the drive wheel--then comes up very solid (my gut is that it's still in a gear and I'm getting my inch travel by the slack in the diff. and trans--then when that runs out--- up against that stuck engine!)
    I'll look to be very sure the track guides aren't folded over (one is kinda shady but I'm rotating it away from the sprocket).
    The green "interlock Stirrup" just may be the culprit or at least a major player since the clutch linkage was completely stuck--been working it over with Pen.oil and working it back and forth to get it limbered up.
     The left side final has leaked the lube out and soaked the adobe--then dried to material that is like brittle asphalt,but I have chisled most of it out of the way.And again since I'm trying to roll it backwards the sprocket is "climbing out of it" as we go.
   I may squirt some oil in the box to "wet" it up again since I'll have the cover off---should I use 90wt or motor oil like 50wt I use in my Fuller Road Ranger truck(s) trans.?
    This old girl had the typical farmer custom vertical high rise exhaust stack mod done to it so as not to catch the field on fire--but its funneled 40years of rain down the hatch! I really think the engine will be bad shape--but for now just getting it unloaded has been headache enough! By the way-- have you guys got a spare piston chisle I could borrow :wink: Thanks again--I'll catch everyone up with some progress reports. Jim
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by waayfast » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2009, 12:22:05 AM »

Quote from: "waayfast"
I may squirt some oil in the box to "wet" it up again since I'll have the cover off---should I use 90wt or motor oil like 50wt I use in my Fuller Road Ranger truck(s) trans.?


It should use 50 wt non-detergent motor oil in the transmission/final drive case.

Blake
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Blake » Logged

My gramps Howard van Driest was Experimental Engineer at Cletrac and Oliver Corporation. After the plant closed, he and my uncle started an excavating business, initially using Cletrac and Oliver Crawler tractors. Please help Support This Site and give your business exposure by buying a business card sized ad.
Ol Paint
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2009, 07:40:29 AM »

It's possible that the motion you are getting is the backlash in the gears.  I'd agree with you that the thing to do is pull the cover off the transmission and make sure that it is actually in neutral.  If it is in neutral, then the problem is likely somewhere in the transmission/diff/final drive since the engine should be disconnected from the rest of the drivetrain at that point.

I take it that you don't hear any "crunching" or other "bad" noises when the tractor comes up against the hard stop--like you'd expect if you were dealing with chunks of broken gear in the final drive/diff?  

Good luck getting the thing rolling--I hope the issue is something "easy," like mine was.  I'll be interested to hear what you find.

Douglas
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Ol Paint » Logged
waayfast
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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2009, 07:50:51 PM »

Well sports fans we are back with the latest report on ol'  "Stuck -won't roll!"
   Got side tracked for a while but now we are back at the problem.I got the goodies out of the way and got the big lid and the small lid (clutch cover) off of the machine.
    I think I have discovered why the old girl got "parked over by the shed and shut off and never bothered with it any more back in the 60's"!The left side Brake band adjustor rod (part#125289)appears to have broke off at the small end at the "shoulder", which also explains why the new improved rod(part#128609) got installed on later models.
    Looks like it's possible the broke off piece (threaded end with nut and the spring) fell down over the front of the brake band to the bottom of the case and HOPEFULLY is not lodged into some gears causing the "stuck".They said they drove it to the parking spot, bought a "real bulldozer",went back to clearing their land and never ran theMG-1 again.
     Over the years the 50wt level went down due to the seal leaking and what isnt dried out and gummed up has some moderate rust in both the rear and trans.For example the shifting rails are in neutral but they are STUCK big time and wont move even with a very long pry bar. The pto shaft/gear took some Penetrating oil and working back and forth (same BIG pry bar) to get it freed up and sliding again.
   MY vote is to fill the case to the top with diesel (with the existing oil) and let it sit a few days (to soak out the gummy crap at least) then try again.
   Then drain it all and try to find the broke piece and get it fished out of the case.  
      Question : will the Diesel be too strong?(eat seals) or not strong enough to do the job? Thanks in advance for any thoughts on the matter, JIM
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by waayfast » Logged

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Blake Malkamaki
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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2009, 08:43:53 PM »

The 50 wt oil should not change from sitting there for years, so I see no reason to mix diesel fuel with it. There could be water sitting at the bottom causing problems, but the diesel fuel won't help that either.

What I would do is drain it all out and see what is down in there. Then, if you want to clean the oil off, spray some diesel fuel in there with fruit sprayer to wash everything down the drain.

As far as the fuel hurting the seals, I don't think there is anything to worry about there.

Blake
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Blake » Logged

My gramps Howard van Driest was Experimental Engineer at Cletrac and Oliver Corporation. After the plant closed, he and my uncle started an excavating business, initially using Cletrac and Oliver Crawler tractors. Please help Support This Site and give your business exposure by buying a business card sized ad.
waayfast
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2009, 09:22:15 PM »

Thanks Blake,we'll keep at it!
    JIM
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by waayfast » Logged

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waayfast
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« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2009, 11:59:01 AM »

Update:
    After afew days of soaking the transmission guts with PB Blaster penetrating oil and light tapping I got the shift rails freed up.Looks as though the transmission case is just about empty of oil and everything in the bottom seems fairly rusty.
    The clutch is not stuck to the fly wheel-it does release.The engine is stuck.
  Toward the end of the day last night I found that If I engaged the right side shift rail AND pushed in the clutch ---then used a pipe wrench on the rear pto (engaged)shaft-- that would cause the machine to roll.The differential will rotate so I'm glad to see its not stuck.
     If the all shift rails are in the NEUTRAL position--the pto (engaged)shaft will rotate as long as the clutch is depressed--this also rotates everything out to the input shaft of the trans.(the machine does not move)---but will not with clutch out.With the clutch engaged it will not rotate.
    I am thinking that the gears on the lower shaft are stuck to the shaft??!!Maybe I'll raise the level up inside the case to soak some more.Right now if the right side shift rails were engaged--and someone were to hold down the clutch--I could pull it off the truck.But I still want to get the old girl in neutral and moveable.
    Any thoughts folks?
   Thanks Jim
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by waayfast » Logged

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Ol Paint
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« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2009, 08:03:34 PM »

It is possible that simply rolling the tractor with the clutch released may work the internals enough to loosen up what is binding.  Other than that, and soaking the parts with penetrating oil (which you are already doing), I don't have any other useful suggestions.

Douglas
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waayfast
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« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2009, 07:31:10 PM »

Well folks-- slow and steady wins the race(and lessens the chance of tearing something up that may be hard or impossible to find replacement parts for)!
   We got it to roll and got it off the truck--thankfully it's the off season and the truck didn't need to be working right now. Been 3 weeks since we got home!!
  Once it was on the ground, we pulled it around a little bit to further loosen things up and get oil back into places it needs to be.The wife reminded me that this was the first time this machine has rolled in about 45 years!She got to "drive"and now understands just how cool these machines are.
  Thanks to all for the advice  ! Douglas-- I have't even looked at my engine yet, but will assume its as bad as yours so here's a question to you and all others: I hate to repower with a non stock engine but if worse came to worse I wonder it a Multi-fuel engine from a Duece and a Half would fit/bolt up?? Bell housings anywhere close to the same? I'm thinking cheap and plenty of them----Just a thought!
   Right now I have lots catching up on other more importatant chores so will have to leave the old girl alone for now but cant wait to get started!  
Thanks  Jim
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by waayfast » Logged

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Ol Paint
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« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2009, 08:07:29 PM »

Properly speaking, the WXLC-3 doesn't have a bellhousing flange.  Instead, the back of the block has a bolting flange that gets bolted to an adapter plate that is, in turn, bolted to the transmission.  This means that it should be relatively easy to come up with an adapter plate to adapt the engine of your choice to the M2 bellhousing.  The adapter plate is about 1" thick, so you have room to play with.  The WXLC-3 bolts to the crossmember with a mount that clamps around a pilot just behind the front pulley, so you'll have to fab your own mounts if the engine you want to use has side mounts--my backup plan is a Pontiac 389...

If you take a close look at the pictures of the RXLC I posted in the WXLC-3 and RXLC Commonality thread, you can see the engine flange that follows the edge of the crankcase and engine block.  This flange is similar to the one on the WXLC-3.  In the picture of my WXLC-3 hanging from the hoist, the plate that is just in front of the flywheel is the adapter plate.

I'm not familiar with Cletrac's commercial line, but there are a lot of nice features on the M2s for the restorer since it seems like the war production meant they used a lot of "simple" fabricated parts, rather than specialized castings and forgings--at least as far as the running gear and frame goes.

Douglas
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Ol Paint » Logged
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