Junk Cletrac, no model, engine swap candidate What model?

[440roadrunner]

Hi folks, from N Idaho area. I always "get myself" into this kind of thing with both feet mired in the mud

Bought a junk Cletrac, looking for suggestions on engine (swap) and help with model ID About it's only saving grace was the low (still too high) price and it has a pretty substantial appearing (Holt?) blade

Now this thing is ugly. REAL ugly. I think the cab will get yarded off. It has a horrid Pintoed 1600? cc with an auto sitting there, all froze up, and some horrid concoction with an auto trans (spaced away from the bell flange!!)

What might be some good combo's for engine / trans?

I"m not really enthused about an auto trans, but have some of you?

Is there room in these little guys for say, a Maverick/ Falcon engine plus 3
speed?

Can you put larger stuff like Chevy inline 6, Ford 300, etc?

Do you need an aux trans with the larger engines?

Ya I know. Lots of answers and no info





Ford Ranger/ Pinto 2000-2300 plus stick?

Old Datsun/ Nissan/ etc/ 4 wanger and trans?

Modify / shorten the trans?

I haven't even got it home yet, so haven't really measured up stuff. How about stuff like "up to" EFI V6's, etc? Obviously front wheel drive junk is out, I guess?

(Once again, assuming I'd need an aux trans for the newer, "higher RPM" engines


I wouldn't be surprised if you guys just kick my a$$ right off of here before things even get rolling!!

[hotratz]

YOU'RE OUTTA HERE !!

Well, I guess my first thought would be what condition the undercarriage is in? If it needs a lot of attention you might be better off salvaging what parts are usable and find another one to restore.

I for one would try to find a correct engine, They're still around and would save a lot of messing with trying to make things fit and work together. That's assuming that the frame wasn't molested too bad with the transplant of whats in there now. The Automotive engines make torque in the wrong rpm range to be very useful.

[440roadrunner]

Thanks for the thoughts, but "correct engine" just won't happen, unless something extraordinary happens. I'm not looking to have some sort of resto, just a budget, running small cat. Hence modern (well semi modern) power.

Sources for me in this area (N Idaho, Spkane) are limited for older "industrial" or low rpm engines, so I'm sure some sort of automotive with aux. trans is in the works.

Well, first I have to get this mess home. snow. ice. cold. winds

[Kevin Aschenmeier]

Judging from the gas tank and what bits of the original are showing I would guess that to be a newer OC-3. The front wheels and main spring look like the OC-3. You can see the bottom rollers too. The second picture shows the frame has been lengthened to hold the engine/transmission. The rear seat has been added with the rool cage.

If the drive train and undercarriage are useable, just put a small engine in it. A local person used to buy OC-3's then drop datsun four cylinders in. He used manual transmissions and hooked them straight up to the original drivetrain. I thought they were quite horrid, but they worked alright. It was like having an OC with the Slo-Lo transmission. The good thing about the Cletrac/Oliver system was that the bell housing did not mate to the transmission. So swaps were easy.

Good luck

[440roadrunner]

Thanks for the thoughts. I haven't looked this over yet, but that is the sort of thing I"m thinking. One thing I HOPE to do is make things at least presentable. Maybe shorten the transmission/ tailshaft up

For example, my old Landcruiser, which I'll never "do" again, uses Chrysler SB V8, Mopar passenger (A833) 4 speed and an "Advanced Adapters" that mates it to JEEP transfer case.

For example, I could use that box with the adapter, which would give me a fairly short OAL on the transmission.

I do have a small Atlas lathe, and might be able to shorten a box on my own.

I do NOT understand why I do this stuff

[Blake]

Go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyhYv4hGgo0 and see what this guy did with a Cletrac 20K. You might find this exciting and want to do the same thing with what you have.

Blake

[Jack in NB]

That's quite a piece of gear!

One consideration with a different powerplant - the original transmission, differential and final drive gears were running on less than 25 hp.

You might run into problems putting more hp (and strain) on 60 year old components.....

Good luck with the reconstruction!

[440roadrunner]

Go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyhYv4hGgo0 and see what this guy did with a Cletrac 20K. You might find this exciting and want to do the same thing with what you have.

Blake

I actually found that film on youtube before I joined this forum. VERY good!!! I don't think 'we" are looking at anything quite that radical, but if I had more money------I was/ are a hotrodder at heart..

Used to........

69 383 Roadrunner

64 Dodge Polara, 426, later 440

70 440 sixpack Roadrunner

later 340 swapped in

62 Landcruiser, 360/ 340/ 318

[440roadrunner]

Well, barring accident, death, or sudden high taxes, tomorrow is the day!!!! The seller even offered to drag it home for me a distance of about 50 miles one way. Maybe he's feeling a little guilty

Anyhow, I'm now--for no good reason--getting excited about working on some greasy, old, piece.

I wonder if we should call it the "Pintasauras"

[jeff fuller]

i like your enthusiasm! the sky is the limit. maybe building a wheel stander would top the cleatasaurus. anyway, have you thought of a buick v-6 225? they have a heavy flywheel available for some low rpm use. maybe an sm420 trans. have a little fun.

[440roadrunner]

i like your enthusiasm! the sky is the limit. maybe building a wheel stander would top the cleatasaurus. anyway, have you thought of a buick v-6 225? they have a heavy flywheel available for some low rpm use. maybe an sm420 trans. have a little fun.

Yes I have but it's difficult to find them reasonablely here. Also, I think I just about need something out of a pu/ 4x4 to reduce length. Another alternative is to "luck" into an automotive transmission that could be easlily shortened.

I spent ALL DAY (I'm beat) getting it to run some. float was crushed in carb (ice?) and I fiunally found another carb in the shop. Yarded out the fuel tank and jerry rigged a Tecumseh !! tank on the cab for temp The engine starts and runs but has one dead hole--don't know yet why

I DID finally get it off the trailer at dark, and ran up/ down the alley 60-80 ft or so.

Tomrorrow.......

[440roadrunner]

BOY what a two days!!!!! Arrived onsite at about 10AM Fri thinking "we'd bump it loose" and drag up on the trailer. Frozen down. Had to remove trailer fenders. Had to block up tracks to get C frame OVER tires. WHAT a day. got home 4:30PM completely beat

The only "sheet metal." Don't know if the grill is origiinal, looks similar to later OC-3/ OC4?



The awfulness of it all. Yes the frame has been lengthened, shortened, chopped up and butchared.



I have no idea if the Holt blade is morphed or fairly stock. It shows some signs of repair/ welding/ etc



The holt blade



Pretty bad. The seller evidently had little or nothing to do with this mess

[440roadrunner]

Got busy today, dumped off the blade and C frames, removed the hydraulics, and cab

I only had to remove the pump mount bolts, 2 bolts for the valve / resoivor, and of course the cylinder clevis bolts I only had to remove the return hose at one end from the tank to untangle from the Pintoed mess, and peeled the whole thing off a little at a time as one big connected unit. Didn't lose a drop of fluid


Tomorrow, even though today was great, supposed to rain/ snow. I'd like to get this mess yarded out of here, otherwise, and just start over.


I'm amazed I"ve made so much "progress" (regress?) already

[Kevin Aschenmeier]

As far as sheet metal goes. That looks to be the original hood off of an OC-3, or maybe HG. The round hole is where the aaircleaner should come through. The back of the hood has a flange and bolt holes to bolet down and hold the gas tank in place.

The grill looks home made.

Kevin

[Gazer61]

What a hack job, I am amazed that it worked at one time!! Being a purist I would also try to find an original equipment motor.What does the frame look like where it is attached to the final drive? Is it the old style( butts up to the final drive) or the new style ( sandwiched in between the final drive casting and the differential).
Does the frame have any cracks in it?

[440roadrunner]

What a hack job, I am amazed that it worked at one time!! Being a purist I would also try to find an original equipment motor.What does the frame look like where it is attached to the final drive? Is it the old style( butts up to the final drive) or the new style ( sandwiched in between the final drive casting and the differential).
Does the frame have any cracks in it?

I'm afraid I'm beyond original. This IS going to need some work, between the hacked up frame and the cracks in the ??support tubes?? ahead of the axles

Yesterday I (note the tracks) herded 'er in, pulled off the dozer gear, turned 'er around, and dumped that Pintoed out. ACTUALLY I got that thing running fairly well needs a "richer" carb, etc, and the bolts into the torque converter were loose so there's probably little wrong with it.

I also went down and measured the length of the Toyota 20? 22? R out of a 4x4. It's favorable. The engine pulley, to the end of the 4x4 adapter (mates to transfer) would barely fit inside the frame, not counting room for the rear coupler. This takes into account the 6" long adapter between the gearbox and transfer case, which I HOPE could be eliminated.

Here's a couple of shots of the frame

I'D STILL LIKE TO ID THE MODEL??

"final disposition"




Frameshots, maybe help to ID this thing





The worst of the brazed suport tube casting. The other side also shows cracks, has not been fixed. Are those tubes steel versus iron? I'm thinking of boxing them or tubing OVER them, and rework the frame end with steel

[Jack in NB]

The external knee action springs, plus the solid front idlers with the rims outside the track chains place it as an OC-3.

I can't tell from the pictures the frame configuration at the rear axles.

The frame on the early ones (our 1952's) stopped in front of the final drive housings. Some were strengthened with u-bolts clamped around the final drive housings. Later ones had the frame running to the back of the final drives, sandwiched between the differential and final drive housings.

There are other posts here - probably John Schweibert (sp?) - with dates of the changes.

[Gazer61]

[img][img]http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww45/gazer1960/102_0014-1.jpg[/img][/img]
this is a picture of the new style frame that started in mid 1952, the bolt pattern you see is the one for the final drive casting.
From your pictures I think that I can see this frame on yours

[440roadrunner]

[img][img]http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww45/gazer1960/102_0014-1.jpg[/img][/img]
this is a picture of the new style frame that started in mid 1952, the bolt pattern you see is the one for the final drive casting.
From your pictures I think that I can see this frame on yours

I believe you are correct. I can take more pics, if you can point to something specific to look at that will help. I now have it down to the bare chassis, and the mud scraped out of the blade mounting gear.

I'm STILL contemplating what to do for an engine, but I did drag home the 20R with 4 speed. It has possibilities. I may investigate getting the camshaft reground to lower the power band some. Bear in mind that I'm looking at an aux. transmission, so that may not be a huge issue. I REALLY think what I'd like to find is an "Iron Duke" which was used in some Jeeps as well as GM. I actually found one for 300, but I'd like to chop that down in price some.

[Gazer61]

[[img][img]http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww45/gazer1960/102_0015-2.jpg[/img]
this is a view of the old style frame. Note the U shaped clamp holding the frame tight to the final drive casting.
[/img]
another angle of the same frame.
If yours does not look like this then you probably have a late 52 or newer OC-3

[440roadrunner]

Yep. My frame is sandwiched into the final drive casting, so I guess it's the "later."


I've just about decided on what to do. I'm going ahead with the Toyota 20R + transmission (4x4) which means I can modify behind the box proper where the box -to-transfer adapter is, I think I need only to turn the shaft for a seal surface, and I think I can shorten the adapter and make a simple "clamped" plate to hold the seal. There'll be no real strain mechanically on the adapter housing. There's a short spline female coupler that "went" betwen the box and transfer, I think I can have a couple tig welded to it, and go right to the existing Oliver spline. I found a cam regrinder who says he can regrind a cam for the Toyota (if necessary) to lower the torque curve and make peak torque down around 2K RPM.

I realize you purists are wretching, but this is a budget deal, and the frame is already so chopped up that it would take a LOT of parts to make it complete, or else part this one out. It is my belief that I can make a really useful little tractor, have a modern engine that's easy to get parts for, and not a tremendous amount of money into it.

I "rigged" the Toyota up (breakerless distro) with a GM HEI module and got fire out of the engine!!! from starting fluid. "Sounds" like all 4 to me.

[440roadrunner]

OK, made some progress tonight. First, here's a shot showing the frame is evidently the later version, definately "sandwiched" back between the trans housing and the final drive/ axle housings



I got started modifying the transfer case adapter. I simply marked the thing approx 3" high with a caliper at the webbing, then sawed through two webs at once with my bandsaw. Then I chucked it in the little Atlas/ Craftsman 12" and faced the thing. I'm going to either try to aluminum braze a flat piece to it, or simply make a flat steel plate that will sandwich it all together with long tie bolts. The plate will have to be turned out to accept an oil seal. The coupler spline (double female) I'm simply going to "silicone" to the shaft, and polish the OD to ride the seal.

For the coupler, haven't settled yet. I may have a coupler half tig welded to that spline piece. I have a "want" out for a "broken" transfer case to gain a stub input splined shaft, or I may just rob the shaft out of the transfer case I have--don't have but a hundred bucks into the entire engine/ box/ transfer package--and cut and use that shaft.

Brings the question WHAT TO USE?? for a coupler

Here's a shot of the first cut with the adapter:



and after facing it in the lathe. Once again, a plate will either be clamped to this face to hold the rear seal, or brazed/ welded to the adapter

[440roadrunner]

Yet some more progress on the adaptation: Got the adapter cleaned up still need to wire brush it really good before sending to the welder. He indicated about 80 bucks to tig it. I thought about trying to aluminum braze it, but that thought was quickly put out of my mind with a half hour of uh, "melting aluminum."

First pic below shows the general layout of the cut adapter. I managed to chuck both pieces in the little Atlas 12" lathe and face them square. The jig will center the whole thing based on the transmission. I turned some flat washers to be a snug fit around the drive sleeve off the transmission, and a snug fit in the oil seal bore on the adapter plate. I did find!!! an oil seal to fit the adapter sleeve and the unmolested bore of the adapter, so that was easy





Second pic shows the adapter plate sitting on the jig, washers in place The transmission shaft will thus locate the whole mess concentric with the oil seal bore




Next shows the lower adapter plate on the jig, with the front half on top, ready for the transmission



Last pic gives an idea of how it will fit when done. The drive sleave sticks out the rear some amount, and will have the flex coupler directly driving the intput shaft of the Oliver transmission. I plan on using a big sprocket coupler, so I'll have a sprocket tig welded to this drive sleeve. Then it's just a matter of getting the thing aligned and mounted in the chassis. I will have to clip the bellhousing some to get it down into the frame. The frame has already been chopped up and I dont really want to do much more chopping

[440roadrunner]

Well yet a little more progress. Here's a pic of what used to be the original Oliver U joint yoke. Bandsawed off the ends, then chucked it in the little Atlas lathe, and with a little chipping and groaning, faced it flat. The arbor is a turned down piece of 3/4" US water pipe. Stuck a screw through one of the holes in the yoke to dog it in place. The other piece is the spline coupler that fits into the back of the Toyota 4 speed. I'll have to find a suitable pair of sprockets to use as a coupler. THEN we can get serious about setting the thing in there. I'll have to trim some off the bell--the frame is VERY narrow. I may have to trim some of the frame yet some more--something I'm not keen on doing. Doing so, however, will be in a place where it's heavily gusseted.

It also appears that the clutch release fork may hid the frame. Remains to be seen, I may have to trim it and live with it shorter, or may be able to heat and bend it a tad. I don't think it'll be much. This is going to be a LONG summer

Believe it or not, I'm going to "throw" the greasy, leaky mess in there as is. I don't want to spend a lot of money overhauling, cleaning and painting this engine only to find that it's a faiure. I'll (hopefully) get it in place and running, and verify that there are no serious issues, then yank it back out and clean it and overhaul/ repair any problems. I DO KNOW it needs a water pump, but I bought a second engine cheeeeeep for spares

[440roadrunner]

Someone asked, so here's a little. I've had a terrible time with this. I cut off the horrid extension on the front of the frame, finally discovering that the frame was bent, cracked, welded and re--welded. I hadn't noticed this because there was a battery box bolted over all this mess o' cracks, with grease and oil over the top of THAT

(To establish frame center, I used a combination of clamping an angle iron to the trans input shaft with a laser on the end, later a piece of conduit with a "pointer" welded in. Worked pretty good. This established not only the tweak in the frame, but where the front of the engine crank should go)

Also decided to weld in some patches where the frame had been cut--and I had to do some notching of my own. The poor condition of the frame is the main reason I didn't try to restore this thing.


Here's a pic of the chain coupling, the Toyta 4 speed and the engine sitting in on a wood block. I've since gotten 3 of 4 block to frame brackets made, and have yet to build a rear mount for the trans. I want this thing SOLID.