I'm new to cletrac crawlers.I just picked up a model ad with a hercules dooc engine.serial number3z764.I think it was built in 1947-48. It has a heil road machinery blade system.its sat for years,I dont know if the engine or the trans is locked up.I pulled the final dive plate under the seat.the trans looks good but the shifter rails wont move in either direction.also I removed the starter to see if I could get a bar on the ring gear to see if I could get it to move. any advice????thanks in advance, scott
The shifter rails have springs with detent balls .They are removed from the front of the trans case . If the engine is stuck take time and work it loose .If you can not get any movement with the ring gear ,remove the fuel tank and clutch cover to get a better place to work with.
the shifter rails are still in the trans case.I looked inside to see if possibly they were meshed in 2 gears, but they dont seem to be.as far as the engine, I will try the ring gear if I can get in there,not much room with the blade mechinism on .I do like the idea of pulling the tank though. thanks,scott
I have a BG that the shifter was stuck on and I ended up working tranny oil into it as I drove it back and forth with a hammer. as long as the gears mesh close to wiggle together it will be ok.
If you think the transmission is stuck put a block on the clutch and the try to turn the engine over. If the engine doesn't turn remove the injectors and squirt oil in the cylinders. You will need a long spout on the oil can to get into the cylinders. I prefer to use tranny oil and diesel a 50-50 mix.
Bob
I had an ADH, be careful on the engine. Parts are scarce and high priced.
Best,
Mike
I am going to try both of these things. thanks.could any one tell me what grade oil goes in the govner? also on the head between the head bolts are what look like packing glands with what apear to be brass sherader valve caps.what makes me wonder is that they are vertically in line with the injectors???? anyone have any idea what they are & what the do??? thanks, scott
I am not sure about the caps and packing glands are for. I don't remember anything in my book about it but will look in my older book. I Have 3 ADs one has what you are talking about and one doesn't, the third I don't remember. I have had the head off both and didn't see anything different but I didn't look real close. I'll look into it. I'll check into the govoner oil too.
Bob
I pulled the injectors to put oil/fuel in the cylinders, what I found was that 3 of 4 cylinders were full of fuel.the guy I got the machine from said that 20-30 years ago they tried to start it but it would not go.its still locked up.should I bite the bullet & pull the head??? any one have any Ideas?thanks, scott
Quote from: "scott vassar"I pulled the injectors to put oil/fuel in the cylinders, what I found was that 3 of 4 cylinders were full of fuel.the guy I got the machine from said that 20-30 years ago they tried to start it but it would not go.its still locked up.should I bite the bullet & pull the head??? any one have any Ideas?thanks, scott
If any of the cylinders that are full of fuel are on the compression cycle, that would make it near impossible to turn over (can't compress liquid). Evacuate the cylinders and see if it will turn over before pulling the head.
I checked in my hercules book and the nut and plug things are there just to plug the holes for the glow plugs. I would give it a week or two before you tear it apart. Pull it apart then after the oil has a chance to work into the rings. Just remember when you do tear it apart to take your time and be somewhat gentle. It took a long time to get set up and its not going to just free up overnight.
Bob
well I tried all the things people posted in return . here is what I found out.I ended up pulling the exhaust manifold off first.it was full of rusty goo.that made me decide to pull the head.after cleaning out fuel,water,& crud.I found one of the cylinder sleeves had a hole the size of a quarter & the chunck inside the cylinder. the others look to be in good shape.no rust or pits.I got the shifter rails freed up, & tranny loose.now it looks like I will have to pull the engine.I called zimmermans they told me sleeves are $160.00 ea.I think I may go that route.they also told me I could change one & not have to do all four. what do you guys think? any one have any ideas? thanks in advance.
Do the "good" cylinders have any ridge on the top? Do you have a set of inside mics that you can use to measure the cylinders for size and trueness?
Blake
the cylinders dont seem to have any ridge on them.I do have a set of machinist "snap gadges" . the problem I still face is one or more of the cylinders are stuck. I still have to take it farther apart to free them up. my thought was to take loose the rods from the crank & tap out the pistons with a hard wood block .
At this stage of the game I would take the engine out of the frame. You have the broken sleeve. Those are dry sleeves and fit real tight. On the broken sleeve, is the block broke behind it? You may be better off and it may be cheaper to remove the broken sleeve and having a machine shop fir you a repair sleeve. Then also take the piston that is worn the most and have that sleeve fir for that piston. Send me an e-mail with a phone number. We can discuss it over the weekend or next week. I am gone the rest of the week. Your governor takes engine oil. The bottom of your pump also takes engine oil. This was before the days when pumps were pressure lubed like in the last 40 years. More questions?
the block is fine.the sleeve it self had a chunck poped out from the coolant sideit was lying on the top of the piston when i took the head off.thanks for the other information, i was wondering about the pump oil.
I have a parts AD engine that sounds similar to what you have. The block has a small crack in it. I have a DD the same also. I was going to just put a new sleeve in the DD and call it good. The sleeves come about .005" undersize and you hone them to fit your piston. We did 4 on my AD, turned out perfect.
I have broken alot of stuck and some quitk stuck engines loose with a piece of 4x4 hard wood and a big hammer. Just work it back and forth and it might come loose. I made a press thing to press the pistons out of the AD parts engine.
Bob
When installing new sleeves be sure you have the block clean, dirt between the sleeve and the block can cause broken sleeves or cracked blocks. One way to loosen up stuck pistons is to turn the block upside down, be sure it is well supported. Make up a strong solution of anti freeze. Buy some dry ice. This is frozen carbon dioxide, its temperature is -40. Put the dry ice into the anti freeze stir until it stops gasing off. Pour the cold anti freeze into the piston, wait 30 seconds and drive on the conecting rod with a block of wood and a big hammer. The cold anti -freeze with shrink the piston and it should come out. This works best if the block is in a warm room to start with. Be sure to wear good gloves and do not get any of the cold anti freeze on your skin. It will freeze you instantly causing blisters like a burn and just as painful.
I like both ideas. I would like to do the hardwood block on the top of the pistons though, as I dont want to bend the rods. the dry ice idea I belive may come in handy for the sleeves. my dad was a machinist & I watched him do something like this for shafts. he called it shrink fitting. he would heat a coller & cool the shaft . the coller would slide on the shaft somewhat easy. when the whole thing warmed up it would go back to the original size. only this I belive would be the opposite. the block being warm,the sleeve being cooled. I have had good luck in the past putting used oil/gas mix in cylinders setting & it on fire. I let it cook till it burns out,wick out whats left,then give the hardwood a couple good wacks with a mall. if it dont move do it again. this worked on an old farmall f-12 I had. also works well on old gas engines that have been on a rock pile for 60 plus years loose again.thanks guys.
Remember you have to drive the piston out the top of the block, as the piston will not clear the main bearing bosses. So you have to drive from the rod side.
when you guys remove & replace sleeves do you use any kind of a puller/installer tool? if so did you make it or buy one??? I got the engine out. I have to rotate the engine pan side up so I can get at the rods. I am wondering what surprises await me. when I drained the pan. 2qts of oil came out with 5gal of antifreeze. I'm crossing my fingers,"no rust or pitting on the internals. thanks, scott
Hercules sleeves fit tight like in real tight. Those sleeves were thick enough that they could be bored to take 60 thousands oversized pistons. Now on the antifreeze thing. I would pressure test the block and see if I could find any leaks. I would also pressure test the cylinder head as well. You may be better off getting the sleeves cut out at a shop with a boring bar and if the block is good install the new sleeves and fit them clearance wise to the pistons. More questions?
I got the oil pan off last nite. took off the rod caps on cyl 1&4. so far the crank look good. I think I may have to remove the crank as no. 2&3 rod caps have only 1 bolt each accessable for the cap bolts. any ideas? thanks, scott
well its been awhile since I last posted about my "AD" project. I am having a very hard time trying to get the pistons loose. I have tried about everything I can think of. I have never had an engine that stuck. I took the crank out so I could work on 1 piston at a time. still none will budge. what am I missing here? ??? thanks, scott
Quote from: Scott Vassar on December 24, 2010, 07:05:46 AM
well its been awhile since I last posted about my "AD" project. I am having a very hard time trying to get the pistons loose. I have tried about everything I can think of. I have never had an engine that stuck. I took the crank out so I could work on 1 piston at a time. still none will budge. what am I missing here? ??? thanks, scott
Can you see a lot of rust in the cylinders? Sometimes it's better to come up than down depending on the rust situation and the position of the piston when it stopped. One thing I have used with single cylinder gas engines is hydraulic pressure. The valves have to be good and not leak. I adapted a grease fitting to the spark plug hole and pumped oil in with a grease gun. Lots of pressure can be developed so you can break things if not careful.
An idea with the diesel may be to machine a flat surface on a piece of 1/2 inch steel plate and drill holes for the studs. Drill and tap a hole for a grease fitting. Install this over one cylinder at a time, with some kind of gasket, and use oil pressure to push on a piston. If it is really tight, you could put some pressure on it and let it set a couple days, then a little more each day.
Good luck
blake, I cleaned the rust out of the cylinder I am working on both top side & bottom. I've put oil in the cylinder & lit it on fire several times to heat it up then wicked it out, put a hardwood block in & pounded on it w/a sledge. no movement. I built a small press on top the cylinder put a 1 inch plate on the piston then a 4ton hydraulic bottle jack on it ,pumped till I could no longer push the lever down, nothing. I have used the grease gun trick on a 12hp headless witte engine once. it works if the cylinder has some thickness to it. I'm concerned that the sleeve wont take the hydraulic pressure. that cylinder is half way down. I may try that on 3 of the cylinders but number 4 has a hole in the sleeve the size of a quarter in it. don't know what to do there. I got some pondering to do on that one. thanks, scott
I just happend to think that the grease gun trick wont work in this instance as this engine has the injector cup in the cut out of the sleeve. now what? scott
You would have to leave an injector in. Even if the oil pressure method did not push the piston out initially, it may at lease force oil down around the piston and rings to help loosen it.
What about leaving your 1" plate on the piston, and pounding on it with an air chisel with a flat punch? Maybe the intense vibration would help?
I used the grease gun trick on an old gas engine and it helped. I personally didn't pull the piston, but the guy who did said it came pretty easy. That paticular engine had been thru a fire years ago and had sit out in the weather ever since full of water.
Good luck and don't give up!
Bob
bob & blake, those are both good ideas. I'll give them a try. thanks, scott
bob, the air chisel worked great on the first piston. got it out. now I'm on to number 2. thanks again, scott
Quote from: Scott Vassar on December 27, 2010, 01:03:30 AM
bob, the air chisel worked great on the first piston. got it out. now I'm on to number 2. thanks again, scott
Why I like these forums , Good people willing to offer help .. Keep us up to date on progress Scott :). Ian .
Sweet glad it worked! Alot of times the intense repetative pounding and vibration works wonders. PS, keep you minds out of the gutters on that last sentence...
Bob
How did the piston look? Any broken rings or ring lands?
bob, the piston looks fine, a little worn on the injector side" rounded edge" no cracks or gouges. as far as the rings and lands they look good. just stuck to the piston. number 2 is as stubborn as number1. not out yet, but I have renewed determination now. thanks again, scott
That piston isn't worn, it was made like that. The corner is rounded, I'm guessing so it doesn't burn from being by the combustion chamber.
Bob
bob, thats good to know. I thought they were worn from usage.