Hello all,
Need some input here. Reading the identification plate riveted to the outside frame just below the engine on the crawlers right side, here is what I find.
AC Anderson INC
New Jersey
Model F3A H ANG
Serial OP6120
I see that this is for the Anderson dozer blade I have with this but it is riveted to the frame not the sheet metal. Any way to at least get a year the Anderson was built? This could at least get me an idea of the crawlers age.
I have the original bell housing but there is no information on it, Is there a place on the frame I should be looking for to find the tractor info? So far a search of the frame etc has nopt revealed anything.
I have the Mecedes motor running now (its an OM621 200D) however need to set up a radiator for it, the original conversion plan was to mount a radiator behind the operators seat as the hydraulic pump was frame mounted where the original radiator sat. I do not want to keep it that way so a search is on for a smaller radiator and a method to mount it up front. Not sure I will be able to keep the origianl sheet metal though. Until this is done I can not operate the machine to test out the drive components however it rolls fine and the PTO does operate with out any noise. after the motor is functional I can get to mounting the hydraulics and blade.
Jim
Did the guy still have the vacuum pump on the front of the engine Jim? If so, you can take that off and put a plate over the whole - that will give you some more room up front. They made a plate for it for the cars without power brakes. It has to be dished out to clear the cams on the front of the timing advance mechanism on the front of the fuel pump.
Blake
I agree, the radiator in the back is a dumb idea. I'm sure you can get something that would fit. If you had to you could eliminate the fan and put an electric one in front.
Is the Benz 4 speed still in it ahead of the 3 speed? That would make a super auxiliary tranny.
Blake,
Sorry have been away from things for a while. Yes the vacuum pump is gone and a cover in place on the front of the injection pump gears. He had the hydraulic pump mounted kind of in front of that area but it then precludes mounting a radiator back on the front cross member. Still looking at ideas to solve that issue but none look like I will be able to keep the original hood sheet metal or the front grill as i may need to put the rad out in front a little. I can see why he was going for the rear mounted set up. It also looks like no clearance for the fan blade (this one does not have it now) as it will hit the front cross.
It does have the 200D 4 speed as well! I need to figure out the shift pattern as it has a side shift lever as well as one on the top. Neither connected of course. The side I know gets me into neutral and a forward gear but not sure of which yet. I can actually move the machine with the starter though when in gear and the Oliver is in 1st. Not that I do that but gave it a quick try to see if everything was still connected in the Oliver gearbox. I need to replace the flex coupler but need to ensure its the original Mercedes part before I order one on line. It looks to be but I cant find dimesions for the replacement part anywhere. Also need to find something to fabricate an air intake as all I have is the intake manifold.
Done rewiring the battery to starter, next to wire up the alternator and when I get the radiator solved work on a throttle set up. This one has been "modified" at the injection pump with a push rod used for speed and shut off. Not very stable but with out any parts to get it back to where it was not sure yet how that will be handled. Its workable for now but not driver friendly at all.
Still need some other parts for the 200D, the gooseneck water inlet/thermostat housing is one and I want to redo the motor mounts as right now its rigid mounted to the frame.
Jim
If it's the one I sold, he had the whole car. The shutoff cable is actually a four position cable with OFF • RUN • GLOWPLUG • START -- you will need that as those engines will absolutely not start without the glowplugs working, even in the summer. I would mount an electric fan in front of the radiator. There are lots of different ones available in different sizes.
The shifter in that car was on the column and had linkage that went to those two levers. Not sure of the combination to get different ratios, but you should be able to figure it out, or ask on a Benz site. The flex coupler is pretty simple and they last for years. Do not use ether on that engine. If it's mine, it has new 1 mm oversized pistons.
Hi Blake,
What was done on this injector pump is the throttle lever end is still there but the end cap has been removed and replaced with oversized washers with one having a nut welded on with the pull shaft extending out of it. The original throttle no longer functions as such. Not sure what was done inside the assembly, these things are new to me. The entire engine and trans was painted CAT yellow as well. Valve cover had been removed and just put back on so it leaks. Not sure if this was yours. The flex coupler shows signs of dry rot as it has splits etc along the edges.
I have used ether to get her going, a few times ended up with ether lock. Glow plugs were converted to the 12 volt parallel versions with just straight wires that I connected to a starter solenoid so I can activate and shut off as needed. It has started when previously warmed up with out the glows running. I can only run short time though until I get the radiator done.
I figure I can sort out the shift pattern when I can run it a bit. Really looking forward to see what 1st gear will give me as I do want to move some dirt with this, nothing major but some grading I need done for the live steam railroad I am building.
I could post some pictures of the project.
Jim
Jim
Post some pictures. I might be able to tell if it was mine. The guy I sold it to was Anthony Basinger in western Ohio. His email address is anthonyhbasinger@gmail.com.
Blake,
Wow this may be the same one, the fellow I purchased it from said the guys name was Anthony that he got it from so I have sent an email to him to find out. If so this could be good!
Thanks!
Jim
Blake,
Made contact and its the right person! So this is your 200D, he has some concerns with the injector pump mods he did so I may have some more work to do to make this a decent runner.
Jim
Yeah, I'm not sure what he did to the pump, but it ran fine before. Did he turn it up for more power? Is all the linkage there from the intake manifold to the pump? That linkage works a butterfly in the intake manifold, which controls some kind of vacuum or pressure signal that works a diaphram in the back of the pump. All that stuff needs to work together. Hopefully that is all still there.
See if he has any extra parts from the car around.
If it were me, I think I would put a foot throttle on the tractor, with a throttle lever or cable rigged up to hold the throttle where you want it while under load. That way you can run it either with your foot or the lever. That engine will run about 4300 rpm and make 60 hp, and I think the tractor would handle moving along at a pretty good speed. At least I have seen them do it. We have an HG with an Oliver 77 engine that was the experimental tractor to develop the OC-6. I believe it handled that power fine, and the Benz engine probably does not have as much torque as the Oliver 77, but I don't know for sure.
The glow plugs should be wired in series and have a dash-mounted glow coil in series that tells you when they are hot and when to pull out the starter switch. If those glow plugs are not right they can burn off and fall into the combustion chambers.
Keep us informed.
Blake,
Unfortunately no on the pump governor set up. There is no linkage the intake manifold had been changed so all I have right now is a manifold with an open air intake port. I will talk with him more about it and as he is employed as a diesel mech now maybe we can come up with a solution. I researched his posts here from back then and he did have a question on how to boost it. We don't live that far apart either.
The glow plugs have been changed out to parallel. I found where there was actually a kit to do this. So far I had been lighting them up for a minute or so then starting it. Perhaps this is part of the hard starts it is prone to have though? I do have a set of factory glows for it but do not have the rest of the components to wire them properly.
researching also for lubrication, I found several posts about what to use on the rollers etc. This crawler has what looks like the standard Zerk fittings at those locations however from what I read and in the manuals we are to use oil instead of grease. Some have had luck using a grease gun filled with oil but indicate its a messy way. Any other hints to this portion?
To note I still can consider another motor swap but would like to keep this motor in place.
I have uploaded a pic of the pump mod. It should be in the "other" section of the gallery.
Jim
(http://cletrac.org/photos/data/media/35/inj_6.jpg)
Jim, I hope he has the manifold and parts. Maybe he knew what he was doing and it will work the way he has it? I don't know. Hopefully he'll help you out and work with you to get it working right. Originally it had a diaphragm on the back of the pump to control the fuel rack, but it looks like he has converted it to manual. Maybe that's ok??
As far as the glow plugs - the serial ones were always a pain because if one burned off or had a crack through it, none would work. Kinda like the old Christmas lights. The parallel conversion is probably a good thing. The old ones took about a full minute to heat up in the winter.
For lower track wheel lubrication, use 50 wt non-detergent motor oil, or the equivalent weight of gear oil. No hypoid or extreme pressure additives though. Use the same in the transmission and rear end and final drives. The Benz transmission takes Dextron ATF.
I would try to make that engine work as that is what makes the machine unique. HGs and OC-3s are all over the place with gasoline engines.
Blake
When he emailed he was concerned that this set up is not correct. Researching the posts here that he had back in the day he was on track with someone about governing concerns but the trail ends there, I am waiting to hear back from him as well. Having a hard time finding 50W oil locally but have found several forums where 50W is said to be the same as 90w gear oil as far as viscosity is concerned. If that can be found with out the additives (if possible).Clean up work continues with the oil leaks fixed, fuel lines and filter replaced. Going to try a simple cable set up for throttle control and have an idea on radiator set up as well. I wont be able to use the original hood at all it looks like so perhaps when all is said and done will have something made up to keep the general shape.
That engine has a pneumatic governor. You need a vacuum line from the inlet manifold behind the butterfly to the injection pump
John,
Ok, this one has been modified and the intake manifold has been changed. Right now I do not have any of those parts and not sure what was actually done inside the injector pump. I noticed in older threads the fellow Anthony who made these changes was speaking with sone one named John, perhaps that was you?
Thanks for your input,
Jim
Jim, he probably decided not to use the intake manifold because it rises up about 10 inches or so to give the air charge a little supercharge due to velocity. If you can hunt around on Ebay or foreign car junk yards, you may be able to find an intake from an early 190D Benz - I think about 1962 that did not have the rise and velocity tubes built into the intake. I hope Anthony has the original parts for you though as you should be able to make them work.
Here's what the car looked like Jim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W110
Here is what the original intake manifold looks like:
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x31/michiel2007/1351482419_136df8e37f_b.jpg)
or you can view the entire forum where I found the picture by going here: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x31/michiel2007/1351482419_136df8e37f_b.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.benzworld.org/forums/vintage-mercedes-benz/1495932-ponton-w110-200-diesel-engine-need.html&usg=__ovXZWqkLX1M7Fe8Dnbl8dFjGpqE=&h=682&w=1024&sz=213&hl=en&start=145&sig2=ZdYYLzhDNu89IeUkwPBSXA&zoom=1&tbnid=ogBNCDr189UnKM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=150&ei=iQcoUY3-CMGQ2AW5x4HoBQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmercedes%2B200D%2Bintake%2Bmanifold%26start%3D140%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Den%26tbm%3Disch%26prmd%3Divns&itbs=1&sa=X&ved=0CDIQrQMwBDiMAQ
Blake
Blake,
Thank you this is great help. I have reached Anthony by phone and expect to talk this evening about the project. I am hoping he kept some of those parts after seeing the above. Weather here has not been conducive to doing work even with the stove burning in the barn so not much done this week. If I can locate the manifold and parts the pump will need to be returned to original as well I am thinking. With out the vacuum pump I wonder how well the system would perform to. I wonder what intake is on here then as its nothing like pictured.
Jim
I don't think you need a vacuum pump at all. The vacuum pump is only for the power brakes on the car. The vacuum that controls the governor is derived from the manifold. Unlike most diesels, these have a butterfly in the manifold with a port strategically placed so a vacuum signal is created and is sent to a diaphragm on the back of the fuel pump. There is also linkage that goes to the fuel pump and to the manifold.
Get the model numbers off of the injection pump. Also where are you located? You may be able to find a variable speed mechanical governor for that pump to replace the pneumatic governor. If I have that information I can check with a couple of my friends that do injection pumps. The kid that owned that engine lived about 20 miles from me.
John,
The IP is a model PES4M 50C320 RS14. I did manage to find a complete one and purchased it in case I need the parts Anthony removed. I talked with him last week and he is checking for any left over parts as well. I am missing the butterfly but may have a source for one if Anthony doesn't find one. He plans to stop over soon to go over some things. I live near Swanton about 10 minutes from the airport. Perhaps you are not to far away? I am close to getting the radiator set up done so I can run it longer. There is a concern the IP timing may be off but I am not sure how to check that or set it. I managed to find an OM 621 shop manual on line and have it ordered as well. It should be easier to start than it is right now. Good news is Anthony had the trans opened up when he added the PTO, indicated to me the internals were in good shape as well as the steering bands. This PTO still has the original pulley as well. Feel free to get ahold of me direct if you want to.
Blake,
I found a source for the butterfly and even the intake that is similar to the picture you posted. I have the short intake on it now and could keep it if the butterfly I found matches the bolt pattern, if not I may have to get the other intake with butterfly attached.
What a great source of help this site is! I hope at some point I can do the same for others!
Jim
Jim, unless Anthony had that pump off, it should be timed properly. My Gramps timed it when we put that engine together. If my memory serves me, it should be 26-27° BTDC with no advance. That engine does have a centrifugal advance build into the timing gear at the front of the pump.
Maybe John would know this one, but I'm wondering if the vacuum governor on that pump is a load governor or an over-speed governor? If it's just a load governor, maybe it's not really needed and could be replaced by a throttle pedal, or a by installing a belt-driven governor?
If you can find a butterfly housing with the ports, you should be able to make a flange and braze or weld to whatever existing manifold you now have.
Blake
Blake,
Anthony stopped by and we went over a lot, it was a nice reuinion for him with his old machine. Yes the IP had been taken off so verifying timming is needed. I now have the original manifold and butterfly and plan to use the butterfly on the short manifold already installed (it fits right on) I do not have the vacum line or linkages though so that task remains. He is going to dig around and see what he still may have. Waiting to talk more with John as well, as I picked up a used IP that is in bad shape but is pretty much complete. It will alow me to replace the vacum govenor and related parts removed from the current one. I need to understand the linkage set up on the this type motor to get an idea of what was connected to what, have not had luck finding pictures on the net. Perhpas the shop manual I am expecting may show it.
Did not get the radiator system mounted as I ran into a problem but now have that resolved and expect to have that done this week. Would like to get it running enough to move around under its own power. This orginally had the model A transmission modification in it and Anthony used it that way as well. He sold the motor and trans combo a while back (some one got a heck of a deal on that!) he said it performed pretty good that way and had even removed a stump of a large tree.
Jim
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x31/michiel2007/1351482419_136df8e37f_b.jpg)
Looking at the above illustration, I believe there is only one line from the butterfly housing to the governor on the pump. This line comes off the top in the illustration. I think there is a lower port that goes to the valve cover for blowby scavenging. The vacuum line from the intake manifold went down to the vacuum pump to aid it in providing vacuum to the power brake booster.
The banjo fittings are the same as on the fuel filter and other attachments to the injection pump. Not sure where you get these if you don't have any extras, but probably any Bosch or foreign car dealer should have them. You can probably just use a stout vacuum hose between the banjo fittings to get to the governor.
The linkages are just heim joint and adjustable rods.
Blake
I guess they're not really heim joints, but spring loaded ball joints. The vertical linkage you see went down to a bellcrank which connected to the foot throttle. From the back of the butteryfly, the linkage goes over to a hinge where the idle speed adjustment ties in. From there another rod goes down to the pump.
I don't know why the heck he lost all that stuff - what was he thinking? That's the brains of the whole fuel system!!
Blake,
Good info. I really need to see the other side of the set up then. Going to start checking junk yards for a 200d or 190d to see if I can find the linkages and set up. Anthony was going to check if he still had them as well. Motor shop manual arrived today so that may help with a few things. Timming is 26 degrees BTC as you recalled. The hydraulic pump is not original so not sure it will drive the cylinders properly or if I will have enough belt grab for it so once the motor is settled that project moves to the front. I did find today I have a roller broken in half so need to add that to the list. Will need a replacement roller and internals for it from the way it looks. Will need to talk with Chris and Zimmerman's it looks like.
Jim
Post some detailed pictures of the fuel pump side of the engine, showing the linkage arm that is on the pump now. I believe the linkage is pretty simple down there. Does your extra pump that you just aquired have an arm? When searching junk yards, the car just before the 200D is officially a 190Dc. Be careful as there is also a late 1980s series of 190D that is nothing like it. Not sure if the 200D has a lowercased letter after it or not. There is also a later 200D that looked like an early 220D of 1968 vintage.
Blake,
OK will get some up, reviewing the shop manual for the motor I realized it would be best to put the original intake back on which is now done as well as the butterfly. Now I need to round up a vacuum line (those metric thread sizes are driving me nuts) and the linkages. I understand the set up now and perhaps can fab them based on info in the manual. The pivot arm though will be the tough one as the arm lengths are not the same so getting the ratio correct could be tuff. I do have the pivot mount though and have got it mounted to the valve cover. Did run it a little again today and moved it out and back in to the barn. Will need to get the gears figured out in the Mercedes trans, not sure I was in first gear but was in first on the Oliver and she really wanted to jump! Off to TSC tomorrow to see if I can find those pieces that fit the swivel ball joints, then thinking threaded rod will do the trick. This set up will allow the use of the original throttle control as well. Radiator is temped in place for testing only and to get the mock up figured out for fabrication of the steel mounts. Had a few nuisance oil drips but now down to maybe needing a new oil pan gasket.
Jim
Jim
Ok, if you can't get the linkage rod ends from a junk yard, you can buy garden tractor tie rod ends that are a little bigger than what you need, but would probably work. That engine has two oil pans - a big aluminum one with a steel sump pan below it. There is no gasket on the aluminum pan, just a machined surface that mates so tight oil should not leak. There is a gasket on the steel pan.
Blake,
Yes it appears to be the front of the lower pan. Not a big deal to repair. I am in luck I guess. I found a fellow down South who had some OM 621 parts. I was able to get the vacuum line, some of the linkages and the valve cover bracket assembly along with a few other pieces. Hopefull they will be here this week. I can then redo the IP with the vacuum set up. Even the though the used IP I picked up had the same model number I have to hope the internal set up is the same. There are a few parts between the vacuum diaphragm and the plunger that appear to set the stroke/response. as the used pump has three small discs used to space this part I have no way of knowing what the original used. But if this gets me going I will be happy. Sent message to Chris to inquire about a roller and bearings. Also need to look at pictures to see if tracks on the machine are facing the right direction? Not sure if they can be reversed but did read something about that.
Jim
Did Anthony ever say why he took the vacuum diaphragm off the pump? I know he was going to diesel school, so someone - perhaps a teacher - must have given him the idea to rig up what he had. I've just been wondering about that.
Blake,
He did not think it was needed and as he had swapped out the intake for the short version the linkages etc no longer worked. He did tell me early on that he knows now that was wrong and it needed to be returned to some form of governing. That's where John had come into the picture but I have yet to talk direct with him. The thinking was that some other form of governing could be done. He works for Ohio CAT now so the schooling and work have taught him a lot. Need to get this machine running to put it to work, started grading for the live steam railroad using the Ford and the box grader, not being able to angle makes that job a bit tougher. But with weather in the 60's yesterday could not pass the chance to get some work done.
Thinking about the tracks does it really matter which way they are mounted other than reverse them to even the wear?
Jim
As far as the tracks, the grouser bar goes toward the front. It won't hurt to run it backwards for a while, but the grousers won't clean if they are not toward the front and will load up with mud/dirt.
There's seldom a day goes by without picking up a new bit of info.
Blake - I've always wondered why the tracks were sensitive in orientation.
You just explained it!
Now.... if I can just remember this tidbit next time I need it.....
Progress while waiting on the 621 parts I got the alternator wired up and was able to start and operate the machine, Motor is still rough but was able to drive it around on two occasions, Yesterday the linkage and vacuum line arrived so I can get to putting the IP control back to how it was (or close enough I hope). I did try to fine tune the IP timing but was only able to retard timing a little (could not get it to rotate the other way to advance it). Fixed several nuisance water leaks as well.
Jim
Hard to believe its been almost a month however several things have been done. Pulled the IP and found it was 2 teeth off (retarded wise) and when reinstalled could get her to light right up. Added the vacuum regulator back in the IP as well and built up the control rods and was also able to connect to the original throttle handle for speed control and was able to take several test drives. Spent the last week working on other items but found that when it ran long enough I have a coolant leak around a previously home made gooseneck for the upper radiator to head connection. This part needs to be reworked/rebuilt so now added to the list.
Installed a Delco single wire alternator and have oil, water and soon amp gauges hooked up
Have a roller on the way from Chris however when taking a closer look at the track and track frames I see I have two different types on the machine. It also appears the left side may have a week or broken spring as well. Need to understand how to tell the frames apart. The left side frame has a smaller diameter main spring and spring pad on the frame mount and large diameter (1 .25") spring rods for the front idler wheel. This side also has a rectangular cutout with a bolted on cover just above the middle roller. On the other side the spring rods for the front idler wheel are smaller (1" dia) and are both bent a little downward just before they enter the spring. The main spring on this side is larger in diameter than the other side and has no dust cover. The spring pad on the frame mount is also a larger diameter than the other side. The wear plate on top of the frame mount on this side is a bolted on plate where as on the other side the frame mount casting has the wear plate as part of the casting. The bent spring rods are also causing the idler slide bars to cock over a bit so I do not expect this bend is normal.
So to me it sure seems like the side frame and frame mount have been changed at some point. Do I need to replace the bent spring rods and if so are they all the same on the through holes where they bolt up? Also may need a main spring for the left side but not sure yet how to check this one. For sure that side of the machine has a lot more clearance between the upper track and the wear plate (about 2")even though I have both tracks set to about 2" of sag as per the manual.
The machine has real good slow speed with the dual transmissions!
Blake you were right though she wont light up with out the glows!
Once the motor issues are all settled I will pull it to redo the motor and trans mounts and then when back in get started on the hydraulics.
Also need to get an input shaft seal for the main transmission as this one is leaking. Will need to replace when I pull the drive shaft to replace the U joint. Anyone have part numbers for the oil seal and u joint?
Jim
Eeek! You have the dreaded mix of HG and OC3 track frames. Its surprisingly common. You'll have to decide whether to stay with that. The OC3 undercarriage set-up is stronger, with better idler support rods, better track frame idler guides, better mainspring etc. Let me know if I can help. I have everything in stock, including OC3 track frames, large mainsprings etc. - but at this time no HG mainsprings (the smaller one of your two). I assume your diesel weighs more than an IXB so an upgrade to OC3 undercarriage would seem like the way to go if you don't want a mongrel ;)
And and to answer your question. The OC3 track fame has the larger mainspring and two square-stock strengthening bars along the front side. The HG has the smaller spring.
Best of Luck.
One more important point. Do you have an HG mainframe or an OC3 mainframe? HG will likely have some form of U-bolt over the rear axle spacers attaching to a bracket welded to the rear of the mainframe rails. An Industrial OC3 mainframe has plates extending back beyond that alongside the transmission case. The transmission to axle spacer studs go right through these mainframe plates.
Chris,
Parts arrived today! Have not checked them out yet though. Ok to be sure the side in my photo is the side I believe you are saying is the OC 3 side frame. This one has the larger main spring however has the smaller idler spring rod shafts that have the bend in them perhaps this was exchanged when the frame was done? I need to check the main frame as well. As there was no builders plate I cant verify the frame however the previous owner Anthony had it listed as a 56 OC 3. He did have the motor etc so I figured he got the info then. The broken roller is also on this side with the larger main spring.
May have to do a road trip your way this summer!
Jim
Yes of course, why didn't I look at your profile pic ::)
Yes, the right hand side is an OC3 track frame.
After more test runs last week end I decided it was time to get the motor off the chassis so the new mounts could be fabricated and the drive shaft rebuilt. A little behind on the rebuild but making progress. Need a few parts and working with Chris on those to solve the main spring issue and a worn track support arm. As the weather has become more moderate progress with pick up.
Jim
Its been a while but also some work has been done! Motor is mounted with a combo of home made and commercial mounts and a new rear trans mount was built. Radiator is mounted and almost done with the drive shaft. I was able to secure a brand new old stock drive shaft so had new donor parts to fab up a replacement. Using the spline and u-joint and yokes for the trans side of the new shaft I have them mated to the Mercedes output shaft. Final welding to be done but several test drives have been ok well almost, tonight I put her in 3rd gear to start off after a drive and the temp weld let go. I do have the front original U joint and yokes left over from the new old stock drive shaft and will offer it up for sale. Both yokes are splined and have the set screw taps in place. The u-joint also has the zerk fitting. Have the dozer blade bracket mounted and soon will begin the hydraulics rebuild. A few more parts from Chris soon to be on there way and the track support and spring will be replaced. A few other odds and ends but looking a lot better. Bad thing is the live steam track work needed to get started so a buddy brought an IH dozer over and some of the work the OC was to do is now done. Bad news is that while using the Case 1740 to prep the roadbed I lost a chain tensioner bearing, so its apart now as well waiting on parts. Of course no sense doing one side only and after opening up the other side found that one just about gone as well! :-\