Bought a 1941 Cletrac HG from a guy using it as lawn art. he lives in Roanoke, VA. & had it out in front of his house, didn't have a mail box on it or any thing. I wanted it because it is 100% original, right down to the fenders, which are always the first to go, & the broken piston on cylinder number 4. As usual water , or ice, in the cylinder blew the whole top of the piston out. The IXA engine has babbitted main caps & the crank has some rust on the journals. I would like to rebuild it but that would likely require spray welding the journals & grinding them back to standard size. In the past I would have just made sure there were no high spots on it & used it as is but I'd like to bring it back to a little better condition than that. So I'm thinking about another engine, found a guy out west that says he's got running engines to sell but haven't talked to him yet. I sure wish "OliverChris" was still around. I would prefer to get stuff from a member here, instead of sending money to some unknown guy only to find out I bought myself another boat anchor & payed to have it shipped across the country. Oh well what's a Cletrac owner to do? Pics to come.
If the main are Babbitt you can make them any size you want. Are the rod bearing Babbitt too? If so the same applies. I would not even think of spray welding, I have not ever seen that work in an application where there is a lot of vibration, it is way to brittle. Some shops can weld it but that is a small crank so may not be able to do that. The only safe way to build them up is with hard chrome plating but that is expensive. Have you tried Zimmerman's, they may have a good used crank and other parts you may need.
How bad is the rust? It may not take a lot to clean it up. Is it pitted rust, or just a discoloration on the surface?
Bob/Blake, the crank has small pitting on some of the journals, in a pattern where the water ran down the number 4 cylinder. Number 3 journal has it too, likely because that piston was near the bottom of the bore& water migrated that way. The main journals on either side also have pitting from water migrating & there was plenty of water still inside when I drained the pan, even though it had a rain cap on it. I guess what stopped the water moving thru the engine was that ice blew out the exhaust manifold on # 2 & 3, behind the carb.
I was a little surprised when I took it apart, it has a shell in the block, only the main caps are babbited, the rods are shells. I wasn't sure you could line bore the mains with a half babbit/half shell bearing setup. The cylinders would need bored & oversize Pistons or sleeved & two new Pistons since #4 is destroyed & #3 is dished on top. I'd imagine it's going to need a few valves replaced & maybe some seats installed. That's a lot of machine work & parts when rod bearings are are $30.00 a piece & who knows what Pistons would cost!
Scott
Another option ; I found a 1940s leader tractor a few hours away with a good running IXB engine. I could use that engine and sell the rest to make back some of the cost of the doaner tractor. But then it would no longer be "all original" & I'd hate to chop up a good tractor that way.
Scott
That engine is going to cost a lot to rebuild, and if you do it, it has to be for you as the chances of selling the machine and getting your money back is slim! The first thing to do is mic the rod and main journals and see what the sizes are. If they are already .030 under size and that is the biggest under size bearing that is available, then you need to find a crank too. Most likely finding another engine would be the cheapest option.
The Leader would have an IXB-5 instead of an IXB-3 as used in a late HG and an OC-3. Someone on here successfully put an IXB-5 into their HG and said it fit and was not hard to do. I thought the bell housing bolt pattern was different.
We have an HG with an Oliver 77 engine. It was the experimental tractor used to develop the OC-6. There are virtually unlimited options of engines you could adapt for an HG. Even a small V-8 like a 302 Ford would be fun if you used the bell housing and clutch.
Depends how important is is to stay original.
I have an early HG chassis with an IXA engine in it, don't know much about the condition as I never did anything with it. I can check it out if your interested. Where are you located? I'm in western Pa
Thanks Doug, I would appreciate that. I'm in northern Virginia, PA is a ride but not too bad. Drove 4 1/2 hours each way to get this machine. Guess I should buy a manual for this one too. It looks like lots of stuff is different from my '50s OC3. Anyone know if the front support arms are cast iron or steel. I can hit one with a grinder to find out for sure. Both of them are broken at the usual place but I think I have a fix for them. It would be easier to implement if they are steel but I'm sure I can get it to work either way. The frame has a crack on each side at the back of the engine cut out from the frame flexing. My fix for this is to remove the 3/4" plate that is riveted in place & replacing it with a 4 1/2" wide, 3/4" thick piece of steel the length of the fame rail. When welded in place this should strengthen the frame enough to keep it from flexing & keep it from cracking. Anyone have any comments on this "fix".
Scott
Frames were pretty weak on those early HG's. The support bracket is cast iron. There's a lot of ways to reinforce
the frame, how bad is yours? Usually they are cracked near the clutch housing. Another weak spot is where it bolts
to the trans case, the holes get worked out. What gauge is yours 42" or 68"?
It's a 42". The cracks are the usual place, in the back of the cut out to slide the flywheel housing down into the frame. The bolt holes look good. I plan to make two pieces of 3/8 " plate steel to weld to front & back of the arms, will look sort of like this (if the photo loads)
(http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag37/Lowspeedlife/3F135D75-9719-48DA-8C41-CDD86B52E7B2_zpsnqm9z4in.jpg) (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Lowspeedlife/media/3F135D75-9719-48DA-8C41-CDD86B52E7B2_zpsnqm9z4in.jpg.html)
Maybe they are cast steel, looks like it welded ok. You could change to the later style OC-3 supports, unless you want to keep it original looking.
I've got a pair of the later ones off my oc3, the mounting ears where they bolt to the frame break off of them, I think these would be better, if strengthened. It welded ok for sure, not sure when that was done but the weld metal looks gold & has not rusted. I've owned it for several months & it's stored out in the weather.
That's why I was thinking cast iron as I have a lot of the later style that are cracked. That weld metal must be an alloy, like a Eutectic or Certanium rod.
Here are a couple of photos of the rear main, it's the worst, the pitting is pretty deep.
(http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag37/Lowspeedlife/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/7EC4C052-F126-4B6C-95FE-4F5D67DFF923_zpsv0ldjwew.jpg) (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Lowspeedlife/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/7EC4C052-F126-4B6C-95FE-4F5D67DFF923_zpsv0ldjwew.jpg.html)
(http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag37/Lowspeedlife/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/229D9EBA-D224-475D-A3DC-BEAAA60D58C0_zpsq6c4mvvp.jpg) (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Lowspeedlife/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/229D9EBA-D224-475D-A3DC-BEAAA60D58C0_zpsq6c4mvvp.jpg.html)
The crank is stamped : H
020
00
I miked the rods they are 1.726/1.727.
The mains are 1.983/1.985.
So the mains are .020 under size & the rods are standard size.
I bought the manual on CD the other day, have not recieved it yet. I'm waiting on it to tell me how to remove the support arms. So I can start on the braces.
It does not appear they had to heat the support arms to get them to weld, it looks like just the paint near the welds burnt off.
I'll talk to one of the welders we have at work, maybe he would be interested a little side job.
Scott
Here's the worst looking connecting rod throw,
(http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag37/Lowspeedlife/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/7EF25164-FEC9-4B08-ADB6-D262D2C3F434_zpsttxitby1.jpg) (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Lowspeedlife/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/7EF25164-FEC9-4B08-ADB6-D262D2C3F434_zpsttxitby1.jpg.html)
There's a crank from an Avery A with an IXK for sale on we-pay, has been on there for some time now, but the guy selling it can't tell me the journal sizes.
(http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag37/Lowspeedlife/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/1B1E7391-D6DA-4864-9B04-4D2EF7F316B4_zps4r798njg.png) (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Lowspeedlife/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/1B1E7391-D6DA-4864-9B04-4D2EF7F316B4_zps4r798njg.png.html)
Scott
If that were mine, I'd be tempted to try polishing up the surfaces at a shop to remove burrs, and see what it looks like. Some pitting would retain oil, and unless you are really going to push the engine hard, should last for years.
Then - if you are a real purist, a more vigorous approach:
Since the mains are babbited, a few thou off them will work fine.
If the rods are fitted with inserts, since they are now standard, taking them down .010 would be an option - provided you can get the inserts. I understand Zimmermans can rebuild insert cups to whatever size is needed.
Good luck with the critter!
I filed the caps down a little on my E and it worked fine. It's been running for years like that with good oil pressure and no problems. Babbit bearings are a lot more forgiving than modern inserts because with babbit you actually have some "meat" there. Inserts have a very thin film of actual bearing material. If there are are no sharp edges to scratch the babbit, your crank may work just fine.
If we every get a day without rain here, I'm going to pull the pan off that IXA and see what it looks like.
Thanks for the reply Jack,
I've put together stuff that looked worse than this, & have seen them run for years in a rental environment where it may have been in almost constant use, or sitting idle for months. But even back then (1980's) those engines had a "modern" higher pressure oiling system. The 15 PSI oil system in the little Hercules IX Engine just seems in adequate to handle its own duties without adding compensating for damaged crankshaft bearing surfaces. It will be for my own use, not for sale, I know these don't sell for what they really should. The connecting rods are fitted with shell inserts & they are available up to .030 oversize. They are expensive about $30.00 a piece plus shipping, I just don't want to waste my time, energy & money only to have to tear it all down again.
I agree about the babbitted mains being more forgiving Blake, I may have to go that route, I just don't want it to be my first option.
Thanks Doug, I'll be waiting to hear what you find.
Scott
I agree it would prob run forever if you put it back together like that. But you have it apart spend the money and fix it right the first time it will cost less in the long run.
Thanks for the reply Larry. I do prefer to do things one time if at all possible.
On another note I was able to braze the two pieces that broke out of the manifold behind the carburetor back into place. With the carburetor in place it can hardly be seen. Once it gets some crud on it, it will not be seen at all. (http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag37/Lowspeedlife/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/9F8A917D-973F-4EF4-A346-D93459671DED_zpsdqa7clhn.jpg) (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Lowspeedlife/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/9F8A917D-973F-4EF4-A346-D93459671DED_zpsdqa7clhn.jpg.html)
(http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag37/Lowspeedlife/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/980DA05C-4F67-4BD4-800F-361D60F6C130_zpsszm3wyac.jpg)[/URL
Scott R. (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Lowspeedlife/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/980DA05C-4F67-4BD4-800F-361D60F6C130_zpsszm3wyac.jpg.html)
I'll be cutting the track frame support arm braces tomorrow. They will be made from 3/8" steel plate, shaped something like this:
(http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag37/Lowspeedlife/3F135D75-9719-48DA-8C41-CDD86B52E7B2_zpsnqm9z4in.jpg) (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Lowspeedlife/media/3F135D75-9719-48DA-8C41-CDD86B52E7B2_zpsnqm9z4in.jpg.html)
They will replace the two rods that someone welded to this one. Hopefully they will do a better job than the original supports did & look much better than the rods do. I don't think I'll try to weld these in place. I don't have a lot of experience welding steel to cast, I know it should be heated first and allowed to cool slowly but for something like this I think paying a pro is well worth it.
No progress on the braces so far, I've been sick since Tuesday. A really weird cold, low fever, headache sore throat & my ankles hurt, that the wired part. Hope to be well enough by Saturday to resume.
Welding some gussets in there would be easy and really make them strong. Plus, they'd look pretty good. Look at the gussets cast into the final drives on a Cletrac E.
Blake
Lowspeed
Here is another way to reinforce.
This reinforcement looks to be substantial.
Does anyone know, was this part of the field updates or home grown?
Looks home grown. I would at least put a piece of diamond plate over it to make nice running boards. Otherwise it looks like a good place to get your foot caught.
I saw that one for sale on We-pay, Outback. Thought it was an interesting modification. I'm sure it's not a factory update. That tractor went for $3350.00. It's a nice tractor, looks like it has factory paint on it but they cut the hood up to get to the oil filler cap & screwed the serial number plate to the hood. It was about 6 hours from here. I just prefer the '42s.
Scott R.
Quote from: Doug424 on April 09, 2015, 02:15:28 AM
If we every get a day without rain here, I'm going to pull the pan off that IXA and see what it looks like.
Hey Doug, any word on the IXA engine in your HG chassis?
Scott R.