Ugh.......water in the cylinders!

[Mike Anderson]

Well folks, here's the bad news.

I noticed the last time I fired up my rebuilt IXB that there was a lot of white smoke.   There was also water on the floor.  It appeared to be coming out of a manifold bolt.  I took the head off tonight, and there are no obvious cracks, and the head gasket looked good.  I couldn't tell which cylinder it came out of, but the bolt was near number three.

This engine was purchased rebuilt by a reputable engine rebuilder, and originally came out of a Baker forklift.  I'll call the builder tomorrow.......hoping for the best.  It had a 90 day warranty, but that is long past due to my slow progress on getting this thing back together.  

Dang.......any ideas on what to look for next or how to proceed?  I'd like to check all options before yanking it out and sending it back to Los Angeles......even if they will take it back.  Lot of work to pull it and start all over.

I did get the grille on.....looks nice!

Mike

[Eric Severance]

Mike,
   That is a crying shame. I have heard of those blocks getting hair line cracks in the cylinder walls, especially after they have been bored. I had one give up it's head gasket once, but that was obvious after the head was removed. Good luck, and keep us posted.

[John Schwiebert]

Right now I do not remember , but do the manifold bolt holes go through  to the water jacket. Can you block off the coolant return, fill the engine full of water and apply about 20 psi of air pressure to the water inlet on the cylinder head. Before you take it out see if you can find some one with an IRONTITE pressure checking set up. If you want  details send me a reply. Also remember all the head bolt holes go clear through to water. Pehaps one of them is leaking coolant past the threads.

[Mike Anderson]

I pulled off the intake/exhaust manifold tonight and was happy to see a couple of extra holes!  I'll know tomorrow if the problem is fixed.  There are two extra bolt holes in the head, below the ports near the center.  I guess they added them to help hold the manifold down better in some applications.  I noticed that they were blocked on the two worn out engines I've got.  They go through to the water jacket and I'm hoping they weren't sealed by the manifold gasket, very likely the problem.  

I cut off some bolts, put a slot in them to drive them home with a little Indian Head Sealer on them.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but it does seem to make sense.  It was one of those things I noticed but didn't pay enough attention to it when I assembled the engine parts.

It's back together, and I'll fill it up with water and try it tomorrow.

Mike

[Mike Anderson]

Ok, tried again.  Filled it with coolant, started the engine.  Ran great, but saw some steam/smoke coming from around the upper two center manifold bolts.  Shut it down and pulled the manifold.  Water weeping from the bolts and the exhaust ports.  Re-gunked the bolts, and put them back in, then topped it off with coolant again.  

Water is coming out of the two center exhaust ports.  It appears to be coming from the outside of the valve guides, but it's hard to tell if it's coming from somewhere else and pooling there or if the guide is the source.  I took the spark plugs out and the cylinders appear dry, so I don't think it's coming past the valve out of the cylinder.

Do the guides penetrate the water jacket?  Seems like they'd be through solid iron since it shouldn't be that hot there.  

Anybody have any ideas?

I talked to the guy I dealt with when I bought the engine, and he said he'd check with his mechanics for suggestions, but hasn't got back with me.  He didn't seem to want to go too far out of his way to deal with the problem and made a point of saying that it had been a long time since I'd bought it.

Thanks for your help.

Mike

[Mike Anderson]

After some long conversations with the salesman I bought the engine from I finally got to talk to the rebuilder.

My options were to take it out, send it back and they'd look at it or try some K&W block sealant first and see what happened.  I went through that procedure but first did the manifold bolts with gunk again.  The problem appears to be solved for the time being.  Anyone ever use a block sealer?  The guy seemed knowledgeable and knew the Hercules engine.  He said the water jacket didn't go around the valve guides and that the weeping may be from porosity in the casting from rust and time.  

At any rate, it's working and I'm a little disappointed in this solution, but since the warranty was technically out I didn't have much leverage or faith that they would do anything different than put the block sealer in themselves.  I guess I'll just keep my fingers crossed.

It sure does run great, though.  I'm waiting to finish the fenders and hood before I take it out and dirty and scratch it all up.   I'll take some photos and send them along as well as see if the reduction chain set up works.  I've only moved it back and forth in the shop, and all is well with no load, other than it's a little louder than I'd expected.  The chains may need to work in a little but we'll see.

Mike

[Blake Malkamaki]

Mike, are you sure it's only leaking on the outside? - not into the oil? I would say that if it is only leaking outside and you've stopped it, you should be ok.

Did they bore and sleeve the block? These engines are delicate in that there's not much space between the cylinders - I've seen them cracked right down the middle by putting 4 sleeves in too tight.

Good luck.
Blake

[Mike Anderson]

Blake,

They didn't sleeve it.  It's .060 over, though.

There was water in the oil from the previous leaks that filled the manifold and then the cylinders, so I'll have to keep my eye on it for awhile to see if there is any more water in the new oil.

I decided to paint the outside surfaces of the grousers black, so I'm doing that a few at a time.  I formed new sheetmetal patches to redo the holes in the hood for the exhaust, radiator filler, hydraulic filler and head light mounts.  I should get them welded in tomorrow.  The hood's in excellent shape otherwise.......no dents or anything.  Amazing in a tractor that's over 60 years old.  The only damage to the hood was intentional except the enlarged headlight mounting holes.

By the way........I have the headlight cans, they too are in good shape, but don't have the rings that would hold the lamps in place.  Do you or anyone know if they were sealed beam or did they have a reflector and bulb?  Is there a source for rings that would substitute?  I recall checking with Zimmerman's a few years ago and I think they said they didn't know of any...........just replace the whole unit.  I'd rather use the originals, if I can make them work.

I put the blade on this past weekend, too, so it's starting to look more complete all the time.

Thanks, Mike

[thecatskinner]

Mike, I don't know if this would help on the lights but you might want to give them a try:
http://www.korvesoliver.com/

Here is a number for a gentleman here in PA that has an amazing collection of restored Cletracs and he might be able to help as well.

Wilbur Lutz
610/678-2933

Good luck.

BTW---my 51 has sealed lights in it but I'm not sure if there were that way originally.

[thecatskinner]

Mike, just for giggles:
http://www.tractorshed.com/cgi-bin/phot ... =retrieval

Those appear to have reflectors in them.

[John Schwiebert]

Mike:
Have you ever heard of pressure testing the block(engine). This can be done in the tractor. Also other people have sealers. An old one that comes to mind is from a company called IRONTITE which has or did have their head quarters in California

[Mike Anderson]

Nice tractor lights at Yesterday's.  I tried Korves, and they don't have anything.  I'll try the other number tomorrow.

As far as the leaks go......I'll wait 'til I try it awhile and keep on the lookout for leaks.  If it hasn't worked I'll look into the pressure testing.

Hood is patched primed, a little filler and paint and it should be complete except for figuring out how to hook up the generator/regulator.  The manual only shows one wire coming from the regulator, but they don't show how the thing is actually wired.  I have a friend good at old electrical systems that I hope can figure it out.

Thanks for all the suggestions!

Mike

[John]

Mike...try Bars leak...follow directions to the letter...you can get it at any good auto parts store...some call it an "Okie" fix(no offense)but the engine is not that sensitive to coolant flow and minimal scale build up...and its a whole lot cheaper than the alternative...keep water in it and run heck out of it...its a tractor!