Junk Cletrac, no model, engine swap candidate What model?

440roadrunner · February 04, 2009, 03:01:10 PM

Quote from: Gazer61What a hack job, I am amazed that it worked at one time!! Being a purist I would also try to find an original equipment motor.What does the frame look like where it is attached to the final drive? Is it the old style( butts up to the final drive) or the new style ( sandwiched in between the final drive casting and the differential).
Does the frame have any cracks in it?

I'm afraid I'm beyond original. This IS going to need some work, between the hacked up frame and the cracks in the ??support tubes?? ahead of the axles

Yesterday I (note the tracks) herded 'er in, pulled off the dozer gear, turned 'er around, and dumped that Pintoed out. ACTUALLY I got that thing running fairly well needs a "richer" carb, etc, and the bolts into the torque converter were loose so there's probably little wrong with it.

I also went down and measured the length of the Toyota 20? 22? R out of a 4x4. It's favorable. The engine pulley, to the end of the 4x4 adapter (mates to transfer) would barely fit inside the frame, not counting room for the rear coupler. This takes into account the 6" long adapter between the gearbox and transfer case, which I HOPE could be eliminated.

Here's a couple of shots of the frame

I'D STILL LIKE TO ID THE MODEL??

"final disposition"

Frameshots, maybe help to ID this thing

The worst of the brazed suport tube casting. The other side also shows cracks, has not been fixed. Are those tubes steel versus iron? I'm thinking of boxing them or tubing OVER them, and rework the frame end with steel

Jack in NB · February 04, 2009, 03:23:11 PM

The external knee action springs, plus the solid front idlers with the rims outside the track chains place it as an OC-3.

I can't tell from the pictures the frame configuration at the rear axles.

The frame on the early ones (our 1952's) stopped in front of the final drive housings. Some were strengthened with u-bolts clamped around the final drive housings. Later ones had the frame running to the back of the final drives, sandwiched between the differential and final drive housings.

There are other posts here - probably John Schweibert (sp?) - with dates of the changes.

Gazer61 · February 09, 2009, 07:08:03 PM

[/img]
this is a picture of the new style frame that started in mid 1952, the bolt pattern you see is the one for the final drive casting.
From your pictures I think that I can see this frame on yours

440roadrunner · February 09, 2009, 09:03:05 PM

Quote from: Gazer61[/img]
this is a picture of the new style frame that started in mid 1952, the bolt pattern you see is the one for the final drive casting.
From your pictures I think that I can see this frame on yours

I believe you are correct. I can take more pics, if you can point to something specific to look at that will help. I now have it down to the bare chassis, and the mud scraped out of the blade mounting gear.

I'm STILL contemplating what to do for an engine, but I did drag home the 20R with 4 speed. It has possibilities. I may investigate getting the camshaft reground to lower the power band some. Bear in mind that I'm looking at an aux. transmission, so that may not be a huge issue. I REALLY think what I'd like to find is an "Iron Duke" which was used in some Jeeps as well as GM. I actually found one for 300, but I'd like to chop that down in price some.

Gazer61 · February 10, 2009, 05:28:59 PM

[

this is a view of the old style frame. Note the U shaped clamp holding the frame tight to the final drive casting.
[/img]

another angle of the same frame.
If yours does not look like this then you probably have a late 52 or newer OC-3

440roadrunner · February 11, 2009, 06:53:53 PM

Yep. My frame is sandwiched into the final drive casting, so I guess it's the "later."

I've just about decided on what to do. I'm going ahead with the Toyota 20R + transmission (4x4) which means I can modify behind the box proper where the box -to-transfer adapter is, I think I need only to turn the shaft for a seal surface, and I think I can shorten the adapter and make a simple "clamped" plate to hold the seal. There'll be no real strain mechanically on the adapter housing. There's a short spline female coupler that "went" betwen the box and transfer, I think I can have a couple tig welded to it, and go right to the existing Oliver spline. I found a cam regrinder who says he can regrind a cam for the Toyota (if necessary) to lower the torque curve and make peak torque down around 2K RPM.

I realize you purists are wretching, but this is a budget deal, and the frame is already so chopped up that it would take a LOT of parts to make it complete, or else part this one out. It is my belief that I can make a really useful little tractor, have a modern engine that's easy to get parts for, and not a tremendous amount of money into it.

I "rigged" the Toyota up (breakerless distro) with a GM HEI module and got fire out of the engine!!! from starting fluid. "Sounds" like all 4 to me.

440roadrunner · February 12, 2009, 04:42:36 AM

OK, made some progress tonight. First, here's a shot showing the frame is evidently the later version, definately "sandwiched" back between the trans housing and the final drive/ axle housings

I got started modifying the transfer case adapter. I simply marked the thing approx 3" high with a caliper at the webbing, then sawed through two webs at once with my bandsaw. Then I chucked it in the little Atlas/ Craftsman 12" and faced the thing. I'm going to either try to aluminum braze a flat piece to it, or simply make a flat steel plate that will sandwich it all together with long tie bolts. The plate will have to be turned out to accept an oil seal. The coupler spline (double female) I'm simply going to "silicone" to the shaft, and polish the OD to ride the seal.

For the coupler, haven't settled yet. I may have a coupler half tig welded to that spline piece. I have a "want" out for a "broken" transfer case to gain a stub input splined shaft, or I may just rob the shaft out of the transfer case I have--don't have but a hundred bucks into the entire engine/ box/ transfer package--and cut and use that shaft.

Brings the question WHAT TO USE?? for a coupler

Here's a shot of the first cut with the adapter:

and after facing it in the lathe. Once again, a plate will either be clamped to this face to hold the rear seal, or brazed/ welded to the adapter

440roadrunner · February 19, 2009, 01:28:15 AM

Yet some more progress on the adaptation: Got the adapter cleaned up still need to wire brush it really good before sending to the welder. He indicated about 80 bucks to tig it. I thought about trying to aluminum braze it, but that thought was quickly put out of my mind with a half hour of uh, "melting aluminum."

First pic below shows the general layout of the cut adapter. I managed to chuck both pieces in the little Atlas 12" lathe and face them square. The jig will center the whole thing based on the transmission. I turned some flat washers to be a snug fit around the drive sleeve off the transmission, and a snug fit in the oil seal bore on the adapter plate. I did find!!! an oil seal to fit the adapter sleeve and the unmolested bore of the adapter, so that was easy

Second pic shows the adapter plate sitting on the jig, washers in place The transmission shaft will thus locate the whole mess concentric with the oil seal bore

Next shows the lower adapter plate on the jig, with the front half on top, ready for the transmission

Last pic gives an idea of how it will fit when done. The drive sleave sticks out the rear some amount, and will have the flex coupler directly driving the intput shaft of the Oliver transmission. I plan on using a big sprocket coupler, so I'll have a sprocket tig welded to this drive sleeve. Then it's just a matter of getting the thing aligned and mounted in the chassis. I will have to clip the bellhousing some to get it down into the frame. The frame has already been chopped up and I dont really want to do much more chopping

440roadrunner · March 06, 2009, 06:52:33 AM

Well yet a little more progress. Here's a pic of what used to be the original Oliver U joint yoke. Bandsawed off the ends, then chucked it in the little Atlas lathe, and with a little chipping and groaning, faced it flat. The arbor is a turned down piece of 3/4" US water pipe. Stuck a screw through one of the holes in the yoke to dog it in place. The other piece is the spline coupler that fits into the back of the Toyota 4 speed. I'll have to find a suitable pair of sprockets to use as a coupler. THEN we can get serious about setting the thing in there. I'll have to trim some off the bell--the frame is VERY narrow. I may have to trim some of the frame yet some more--something I'm not keen on doing. Doing so, however, will be in a place where it's heavily gusseted.

It also appears that the clutch release fork may hid the frame. Remains to be seen, I may have to trim it and live with it shorter, or may be able to heat and bend it a tad. I don't think it'll be much. This is going to be a LONG summer

Believe it or not, I'm going to "throw" the greasy, leaky mess in there as is. I don't want to spend a lot of money overhauling, cleaning and painting this engine only to find that it's a faiure. I'll (hopefully) get it in place and running, and verify that there are no serious issues, then yank it back out and clean it and overhaul/ repair any problems. I DO KNOW it needs a water pump, but I bought a second engine cheeeeeep for spares

440roadrunner · March 25, 2009, 07:15:21 AM

Someone asked, so here's a little. I've had a terrible time with this. I cut off the horrid extension on the front of the frame, finally discovering that the frame was bent, cracked, welded and re--welded. I hadn't noticed this because there was a battery box bolted over all this mess o' cracks, with grease and oil over the top of THAT

(To establish frame center, I used a combination of clamping an angle iron to the trans input shaft with a laser on the end, later a piece of conduit with a "pointer" welded in. Worked pretty good. This established not only the tweak in the frame, but where the front of the engine crank should go)

Also decided to weld in some patches where the frame had been cut--and I had to do some notching of my own. The poor condition of the frame is the main reason I didn't try to restore this thing.

Here's a pic of the chain coupling, the Toyta 4 speed and the engine sitting in on a wood block. I've since gotten 3 of 4 block to frame brackets made, and have yet to build a rear mount for the trans. I want this thing SOLID.

kapou · March 25, 2009, 06:15:10 PM

that looks great! not very many oc3 fans around is there?

KAPOU

Blake Malkamaki · April 09, 2009, 02:26:50 AM

I started a new discussion for KP Farmer

http://cletrac.org/newbb/viewtopic.php?t=2367

440roadrunner · April 19, 2009, 01:14:18 AM

Well I've made some more progess:

Got the engine finally bolted down

Got it fired

Started the clutch linkage

Found some Massey 30 "front clip"--remains to be seen (I don't have it) if it will work for sheet metal

I intentionally did little to this engine, not knowing if it'd run good. I had fired it previously with no intake or exhaust, simply squirting fuel into the ports. I haywired a fuel tank, and am using a GM HEI module with the Toy breakerless distro.

Got the engine fired and haywired the radiator enough to warm it up. Good news is that it sounds good. Later changed the oil/ filter. Doesn't seem to have much blowby. Had to change the front oil seal

Here's a front view. BAD news is that the lower hose--depending on final radiator, will be a beeoch. I'm waiting now to find a "front clip" of tin I can use off something. Tractor junkyards around here are few and far apart

Exhaust side. You can see that the alternator hangs "clear out." The fan is offset quite a ways to this side (I may go electric) and therefore is part of the lower hose problem. I MAY have to find/ have a radiator with the lower hose on opposite side, go down OUTSIDE of frame and under to connection. Slightlty wider "stock" rad will alleviate this IF it will fit the sheet metal

Carb/ intake side. I didn't have to do a bloody thing with the carb, it runs just fine. Still looking for a good buy on a governor, another lenghty problem, I 'spose. Everything you see is "haywired" just to test the running of the engine. I've actually moved it around the yard!!!! by simply "kicking" the transmission in/out of gear. The Toy trans remains in 1st or 2nd. I got carried away trimming the bell to fit down in the frame--for some reason I thought it had to go down further

440roadrunner · May 01, 2009, 04:21:38 AM

Well yet some more progress. I acquired the dash, tank, hood, and radiator support for the much larger Massey Harris 30 wheel tractor---got a free cat, too--the kind that eats

I'll shorten the hood, have to cut the side(s) to clear the carb, and will either have to make a grill or find a Massey 30 nose/ grill

Here's the tank and dash, the front mounts for the tank are already done. I have to make the single (bolt) rear mount. Next immediate project is to build the clutch linkage. I have to clean the rust out of the tank and treat it with the "POR-15" chemicals. I'll have to shorten the gearshift, it hits the tank.

A view to show how it will "sit" The pipe fittings take the lower hose from the pump around and under the frame. The fan/ alternator simply don't allow any room for a pipe or hose to pass inside the frame, nor does the width of the engine block. Radiator is out of the original sale, I spent 75.00 getting the outlets changed, cleaned and checked. It's VERY heavy and thick. You can get some idea of how the offset fan comes very close to the frame The mess of ignition is temporary to allow moving the rig

Once again, showing how little room there is. The fan only misses the inside corner of the frame by 3/8-1/2" The muffler is propped up to show about how I plan for it. I plan to elbow out of the manifold, bracket the muffler along the frame, with just a simple turn down at the front. I was going to use the old one, much too long. I actually planned on cutting it in half and sectioning it. Guess I'm getting lazy

440roadrunner · May 05, 2009, 03:20:52 AM

Well, I've managed to eak out yet a little more progress

The pivot for the new clutch pedal. I didn't get one, remember? This thing had an auto transmission. This is one last mount for the rear of the transmission, doubles as the clutch pivot. I discovered that US 1/2 pipe, with one pass using a 5/8 drill, is a good fit for a 5/8 bolt, so I sawed a piece of 3/4" pipe and forced it over the 1/2 for additional strength The clutch pedal will be welded to that assembly

The clutch linkage Starting at the bottom, the clevis rod operates the clutch fork on the right side of the chassis. That hooks to the short side of the bellcrank on the left, which sits vertically in the extreme rear of the corner of the chassis and transmission case. The long piece goes UNDER the chain coupler between the two transmissions, and is hooked to the new clutch pedal (at top) through a short clevis rod, not shown.

The clutch pedal in the chassis. After the tank is installed above, I may be able to trim off some of it, and will weld a lip on the outer end

The new muffler I was thinking of actually shortening the original old glasspack, but decided it was too much work Pipe is a scrap from a muffler shop YOU ARE CORRECT!! IT IS RUNNING!!

I even had to make one footrest. Have no idea why someone removed the original, except the battery was down there--a very poor place, and no place for your foot!! I ended up using the outer lip for a mount point for the hydraulic tank

The hydraulic tank and valve, again, mounted to the footrest, made a clamp around the axle This seems to have some sort of rattel--ly valve? filter? in the bottom. I'm thinking of cutting a new hole for a new drain. Not much confidence in what's in the bottom of that tank The plan is to run a piece of channel under the fuel tank and run a pair of pipes out over the opposite track for a little protection for the piping/ hoses on the left side of the crawler

The guard for the transmission coupler I have no plasma cutter, this is 1/8 plate. I had to cut an arc on the upright plate, laborously using my bandsaw, to clear the coupler. Good thing I'm not trying to make a profit on this thing!!