Adding Hydraulics

[ggibby]

Hello fellow crawler folks,
I am trying to add Hydraulics to mt HG 68.
I have a Vickers pump and A Gre-sen two-way valve.
The cylinder I have is about 3" dia and about 12" stroke.
The cyclinder is to raise and lower a trailer plough.
I have to come up with a tank for the fluid and a place to mount the valve.
A filter will need to be added to the system as well.
How should the system be plumbed all hose or pipe and hose for stress and vibration isolation.
I want to have dis-connects for when the cylinder is not in use.
Any helpful hints and suggesions for this project of mine would be appreciated.
Looking forward to your ideas.
Regards,
George Gibby

[John Schwiebert]

My kind of thing. First of all, what model pump, What model Gresen valve?
Second on the plumbing, stay away from as many pipe fittings as you can, use straight thread O-ring or JIC. When you say plow, do you mean a pull type plow as you farm with? If so standard  cylinders for them are 8 inch stroke (ASAE standard) and usually 3 inch in diameter. Filter must be on the return side, 10 micron would be good. Capacity, twice pump output. Make sure it has a bypass valve. especially if you use it in cooler weather. Make sure you have some give or slip in the pump driveline and the pump must be set up for counter clockwise rotation. Now send me more facts and figures. How intense is the use of this equipment? Normal rule of thumb, and there is a lot to consider here, but tank capacity is twice that of pump flow, but the key factor is length of duty cycle. Quick couplers just a plain set of AG type (Pioneer) and have them hook to hoses from the valve. What model valve do you have? I still have some Gresen literature from when I taught the Gresen product classes. I can send you some. Relif valve 1500 PSI should work fine.

[ggibby]

John, hello.
Thank you for your reply.
The pump is a Vickers 240? I believe the Machinist told me.
I know it has "CC 177" stamped onto part of the housing.
The Gre-Sen valve is a two way job, it has "400" molded into the main body.
Both have pipe thread connections.
Is the relief valve part of the valve?
I do need to add a filter, I'm thinking of a screw on type for ease of maintanance, etc.
The cylinder I have, I tried on the Plough fully ext
ended, Oh yeah  it is the farming, feild plough type.
What are o-ring or JIC fittings like, I was thinking that these were just standard pipe thread.
The tractor gets intermittant use, and is stored outside with a tarp over it, air can free flow around it.
Having hydraulics on it will make it a more versital machine.
I would like to add a three piont hitch or maybe a snow plow if I were to move to some place that required it.
These parts were on the tractor when I got it, but I removed them when I started fixing it up.
The tractor had a homemade dozer blade on it.
Since it was a pretty loose arrangment of parts and would not hold the blade up I took this hodge podge all off and saved what I could reuse later on.
My machinist tells me that he has a good used pile to replace my trashed pieces of pump, and that the valve won't be a problem to put new seals into.
My cylinder will no-doubt need to be rebuilt also, I have two, one for each side of the dozer.
But thats next, having no filter really took its toll on the system components.
Regards,
George Gibby

[John Schwiebert]

Just missed you I guess. First of all the pump is a V-something. If nothing else, give me the center to center distance of the four bolts that hold it together. The model number is stamped on the pump. If you need help I will e-mail you a typical model number. On the valve, on the inlet side there should be a 3/8 or half inch pipe plug between the inlet port and the valve spool. This plug has an Allen wrench head. The relif valve is behind this plug and is adjustable to a certain point. For what you intend to do 1000 to 1500 psi would work quite well.However you will be O. K. for now, but when the blade or the three point come, you wuill need a valve with "float position" which is not available on the model 400. A valve with float in the float or fourth position will allow the implement to follow the contour of the ground. You need a Gresen SP for that,  but that can come later. On the pump pressure side and on all four ports on the valve I would go pipe to JIC adapters and then with your hoses and or tubing you will have must better chance of avoiding leaks. In fact many newer higher pressure valves are not available anymore with pipe thread because of sealing problems. Does your plow have hydraulic lift on it now? What kind of plow, make and model is it? Filter wise a spin on would be fine, I would make sure it has a bypass valve and you could option for the filter indicator. Enough information for tonight.

[ggibby]

John, Hello.
I stopped at the machinist's today.
The pump is a 14 gpm, and it's about 5 inches between the bolts.
The valve does not have a built in relief valve, so I will use a add on type.
The filter is good for about 25-27 gpm and the adaptor has a built in bypass.
I forgot to ask about the JIC fitings.
What do the fittings look like? Are they flange to flange or do they screw together?
The Plough is a Case two bottom trailer and has been set up for hydraulics already.
I don't know if this was a add on kit or a farmer derived design.
Most of the bracketry seems to be machine cut.
There is some welding either to repair or rebuild what was already there.
I may need some new points but one thing at a time.
Regards,
George Gibby

[John Schwiebert]

14 GPM at what RPM? On the relief valve, I will send you one that will fit in that valve. I need an address and a phone number. Send me a U2U with that information. I will be gone untill Monday.

[Blake Malkamaki]

George, I think you may have too much stroke in your cylinder for your plow. And the cylinder itself will probably be too long. If the plow is originally hydraulical lift, I believe those all use a standard cylinder size. You can probably pick one up pretty reasonably. Some even have a built-in bypass that you can adjust and use as a depth control.

I have a 3 bottom Oliver trip plow that I pull with my Farmall Super M that uses the cylinder I described. I can take that off with a couple snap clips and put in on my mowing machine or disc. They're designed to be switched to different implements.

Blake

[ggibby]

Blake, Hello.
Yes, John made the same comment.
But I have test fit the one I have up to it already.
It seems like a perfect fit to me.
But I will be keeping a close eye on it when I first test it out.
I think that the hydraulic linkage on the plough may have been some sort of kit or from another plough.
I hope that I will be able to use more implements on the tractor as it does have a PTO.
If I could locate a 3 PT. system for the HG the hydraulics would be in place and ready to go.
Keep Well,
Regards,
George Gibby

[John Schwiebert]

George; The reply by Blake is correct. I will be close on these dimensions. Closed length of the cylinder is 20 inches extended length 28 inches. If you go with more implements  and if they have the set up for factory hydraulics you will be in trouble.. We priced a Cross or Prince build 3 inch cylinder from John Deere and it was less than 90 dollars last fall. Are you planning on running your three point like on a wheel tractor with factory three point examples being a Ford or Massey Ferguson? If so, they do not have down pressure and you need that option on your control valve. I can not believe you do not have a relief in that 400 Gresen. I have been thinking about trading you  a new one I have here just to have one that does not. Other questions.

[ggibby]

John, Thanks for the info about the cylinder.
Maybe I have the eight and think it's 12, I will have to the measure it the next time I get out to the folks place.
The Gresen 400 I don't think the valve could be converted to float.
There is a port with a allen plug in it but I was told that is was from the machining process.
Perhaps this was for the bypass you mention.
I will ask the machinist when I go to pick up my parts on friday.
There was also a Gresen 400S that could be different.
I think the I will use the disconnects at the rear of the tractor and pipe type fittings as this system should run at 1500 psi.
If I ever get to putting on the 3pt. I would need a Float type valve to allow the system follow the ground.
Regards,
George Gibby

[John Schwiebert]

George:The relief valve is behind the allen plug, Take the plug out once and see if you do not find a spring and a ball and a protector. There are more options to those 400 valves. Like I said send me a U-2U and I will send you the service literature. I think I have about three of those valves in my stock from when I taught the class, price is right. No you are correct, the 400 can not be converted to float. You neeed a 4 position valve to do that .

[ggibby]

John, just a foot note.
I picked up the valve and pump friday, you are correct there is a spring and ball under the allen screw.
Do you think that this has enough volume to relieve the volume of the pump which is 14gpm at 2500rpm.
Although the max rpm of the HG is supposed to be 1810 (no load).
Oh, yeah here is the numbers off the rebuilt pump "V21011W1C12" and "G02LD S214".
It has a 1" input and 3/4" output.
The machinist stated to me that the middle plate is thicker than my original and acounts for the larger volume compared to my 11 gpm original,
it makes sense.
I need to come up with a tank next, Zimmermans did not have any of the type that mounted in front of the radiator, of which they had none.
He suggested that many people simply mount a tank next to the operator or under the engine between the frame rails.
I think a volume of about 4-5 gallons should be plenty for this set up.
Keep well,
Regards,
George Gibby

[John Schwiebert]

That valve will work fine. A 5 gallon tank should work if you are just going to "farm " with it. If you start running hydraulic motors for periods of time you will be in trouble. Reading between the lines, what part of say an hour is that pump supplying fluid under pressure. Also remember 4 gallon in a 5 gallon capacity tank is abot correct. Put a good breather on the tank above the tank. Return the oil on one end have the suction port on the other end and it is best if the tank outlet is slightly above thepump's suction port. a narrow tall tank is better than a short fat tank.

[ggibby]

John, Sounds like good advice.
The use is, intermittant but I do want a system that can remain viable for some time.
I would like to make the tank as inconspicuious as possible, and there is not to many hiding places on this tractor.
So I will be sure to do a good job with all that can be seen.
I guess I have some thinking about how to do this.
Thank You again for your advice.
Keep Well,
Regards,
George Gibby

[Blake Malkamaki]

George, is your pump going on the front of the crankshaft? Hope so, or you'll have to have the clutch engaged everytime you want to use the hydraulics. If you're mounting it up front, perhaps you could hide a tall skinny tank behind the grill and in front of the radiator.